If at the opening of a meeting, or at any time in my day, or life..., I were to say 'A Hymn to Amun-Ra' with the frequency that The Serenity Prayer is recited..., will the spirit that created all life be offended if it turns out that He is not Amun-Ra?
If I remove all obvious references to Amun-Ra from that hymn..., will the spirit that creatred all life at that point be pleased by my vocal offering and acknowledgement of a deity's existence?
Is 'A Hymn to Amun-Ra' perceived by the spirit that created all life as being to Him, and not to Amun-Ra if all reference to Amun-Ra is removed?
If the spirit that created us is not Amun-Ra, and is everywhere on Earth at all times..., and has always been since creating all life..., then He will know that 'A Hymn to Amun-Ra' is to Amun-Ra no matter how much I remove from it.
Right?
He will not just recognize it, but was there when it was written. And, He was there when I learned it. He was there when I shortened it, and knows everything about it that can be known.
Right?
So, then...,
1) How is The Serenity Prayer NOT to the Christian god just because the references to Jesus Christ have been removed?
2) And how is it's recitation NOT an acknowledgement by NA that the Christian god is the 'God' of The 3rd Step?
So then.., what you are saying is that you are clueless as to how to answer the questions?
Have they gone over your head?
Please try again.
I had been wondering if you were a seeker of knowledge or merely trying to stir up a hornets nest. This reply answers my question to my satisfaction.
Whether over my head or below my feet my Higher Power has been with me yesterday, today and tomorrow whether I understood or understand my HP fully. Which is good and as it should be, because I never will fully understand my Higher Power in my humble Journey in Life and Recovery. Which for the record is and has been working quite well for me One Day At A Time for over Thirty years through the Power of NA by the Grace of a God of my Understanding.
Keep Coming Back and KISS.
__________________
Work the Steps or Die MF. (My Friend :) Clean One Day At a Time by The Grace of God through The Power of NA
If your concept of a higher power is Amun-Ra, great!
If it's the group, great!
If it's the 12 steps, great!
If it's a higher power of your understanding, great!
If you are atheist and trying hard to disqualify yourself from the possibities of recovery through the 12 steps, then you might be able to recover using another method. It has worked for me though, and many before me.
Mike.., you don't understand the questions, do you?
Do you need me to explain them further?
NA is supposed to be 'not religious' yet invokes the Christian god before every meeting.
That, while claiming that no one is going to decide for us what our concept of Him shall be.
It is decided at the beginning of every meeting.
If the Christian god is not who created us, do you think that He is pleased to be addressed as Jesus' father?
How hard is it to understand?
Unless the spirit that created us is the Christian god, He will be offended at the recitation of The Serenity Prayer the same way that He would Aif He is not Amun-Ra and we were to say A Hymn to Amun-Ra before every meeting.
Do you not understand that?
Why do people in NA fail to grasp that Yehweh is invoked before every meeting. If the spirit that created us is not Yehweh, He will have about the same interest in helping a person as you would if I addressed you as Gail.
If a person goes around claiming that Amun-Ra is helping them..., the spirit that created us will probably be angry that the addict is saying that in meetings.
Because He would know that Amun-Ra does not exist.
How can you say 'Great' to another human being that is on the path to offending our creator, (Since you didn't get the part that it was hypothetical), and say that?
Do you understand that the spirit that created us is not just a god, but that He also has emotions and opinions that He in all probability can not set aside?
So, if He is angry..., then He is angry in a COSMIC way?
And that any person who makes false and misleading claims about Him is likely to anger Him?
He is not a god of MY understanding.
He is a god of HIS understanding.
To teach another person something that He did not instruct us to teach, is taking on a big responsibility.
Where does the knowledge of any offer of help from AHim originate?
Some will resist. However, many will become the role models for newcomers to follow while the self-seeking soon find they are on the outside, causing dissension and eventually disaster to themselves. Many of them change; they learn we can only be governed by a loving God as expressed in our group conscience.
Those may be harsh words but i've seen it over and over again, people driving themselves from the program and using or living a miserable existance clean. That is an explanation of tradition 2 which states ,
"For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.
If your goal is to change the minds of millions who know this concept works then I just say "Good luck with that", i'm sticking with what works and not concerning myself to much with whether i'm angering some god/deity out there, I know my lifes changed for the good believing in the God of my understanding, a loving, concerned all powerful God who delights in us addict seeking that power in our lives, I surrender every day to that power of MY UNDERSTANDING and if someone wants to call that a christian god thats fine if you want to call it a demonic god and place other names on my god thats fine too LOL I really dont care what you think to be honest its my recovery and my program is the NA program and my recovery has depended on these ideas and concepts and for me they work.
Where do you get valid information about your god?
How can you be certain that you have valid information about what delights Him?
This is a serious question.
How can any person concerned with spiritual matters not be concerned with what angers Him?
That is a mind blower!
Well James I may be schizophrenic ( never clinically diagnosed ) lol, but I've had more then a few live conversations with my higher power and I know that power and what it in part is, do I know what it is in whole? NO WAY all I know is what i've experienced in the last 30 years as a struggling addict alcoholic who's been trying to find my way out of addiction . I've had many spiritual experiences and not all on dope or booze or while detoxing. I've had clear interventions and discussions with what and who I believe to be my higher power and I know that power and what it's all about and i've known for a long time.
I guess I feel fortunate to know I have a loving higher power whos best interest is me, hell i couldn't even do that for myself for a long time and am begining to be able to do that now.
Yeah it is a MIND BLOWER what blows me away is that for so long I had no idea what it meant to be dependent on a power greater then myself and how that could make me independent, independent of the need to use, or be vindictive and hurtful, or so self centered I would kill or committ suicide, yes this is a mind blower for sure and i am truly greatful to have so much.
How can any person concerned with spiritual matters not be concerned with what angers Him?
That is a mind blower!
Indeed for many years I was subject to the teachings of my youth and that of a vengeful, fearful God full of Though Shalt Not Though Shalt Not Though Nots. For many years in many ways I rebelled including and especially during active Using and did many many Though Shalt Nots. And I was afraid and ashamed. And used even more.
It took many years in Recovery to overcome the follies of my youth. It took many years in Recovery to come to believe in a God of my understanding I had no reason to fear, no reason to fear angering. The God of my understanding is full of Love and Compassion and Understanding, not a vengeful God angered when I fail perfection. But rather a God who sorrows when I fall short and offers to help me get back up should I but ask and listen.
NA is indeed a program based on Spiritual principles. NA is not a religious dogmatic program.
__________________
Work the Steps or Die MF. (My Friend :) Clean One Day At a Time by The Grace of God through The Power of NA
This is the mind-f**k that will keep me sick. The conversation could go on & on. Some name the universe as their HP. As for the serenity prayer the essential sentiment is to remind me that some things I can't control and I can learn to accept that. It also reminds me that the things in my life that I can change should occupy my mind and lead me to a more peaceful existance. I hope you can get this issue sorted out in your mind to enable you to be at peace with yourself and the choices you make.
Big V., I deleted portion of question to about just what you said.
I deleted, "Did He tell you Himself?"
I feel that if knowledge comes from a book, such as The Bible, it should be termed 'religious' when described in literal terms.
If it comes from someone's imagination, it is 'fantastic', or fantasy.
If it comes directly from a spirit, in the form of a voice, it is spiritual.
I have some more fairly interesting and thought provoking questions for members here about the invisible reality.
I too am familiar with 'that voice'.
I am diagnosed.
If I speak, even in thought, to the spirit inside of me, He answers.
Every single time.
With that in mind..., Because I know that He is who I will be brought to life, and judgement by, I take my questions very seriously.
He is the one who will decide how long I remain in the grave answering questions and until He is satisfied.
He is the one who decided that I should get clean. Not me. He started requesting, then demanding, that I gey clean in 1987. But for rebellion, I refused until 2004.
I won't bother you with the whole story, but since you told me a portion of your's, I tell you mine. Otherwise I would not have.
People reject the notion that a god would ever speak to a person and contradict The Bible.
I try to be careful with others. Because He can visit whomever He wants to in the grave. If He wants to visit, and question/talk to any other person..., He has the authority to do that.
With that in mind..., when other people are rude to me, who don't know that this is the reality, I am only allowed by Him to go so far in relating to/with them because I DO know it, and they might complain when it happens that it should not be 'on them' like it is because they did not consider it possible when they offended me. And He is relentless. There is no reprieve until He is satisfied that a person has been brought down sufficiently. That takes time.
Had they known, they would not have said what they did.
So, I might not have His permission to question NA members here for very long.
I know NA members to be some f the most closed minded people on Earth. Believe it or not. That, while claiming to be open minded.
They just don't 'get it' that The Program has a brain washing effect toward an attitude about the spirit. That because they opened their mind for a time, and then closed it again.
I am here to see for myself, and prove to myself, if, and how, reachable or unreachable NA members are.
I have sent email question to NA World Services to question them.., and they refused to answer them beyond a certain point.
All they did was quote the literature and demonstrate that they have a double standard in it's interpretation. That while not knowing that my god/Higher Power is looking through my eye's and intending to visit them in the grave to ask some follow up questions and straighten them out on their responses to me.
I'll talk to ya later.
Thanks for opening up about your spiritual experience.
Since NA is not dogatic, here should be no problem with questioning the validity of the literature.
My questions are about just that. Validity provable through 'reason'.
If validity comes from an ancient text, such as The Bible, then it would be religious.
Some claims in the literature can be traced back directly to claims made in The Bible. Bill W's original source.
Some though can not.
Of those that can not.
Of those, what can be proven true/valid? Well, if it is based on personal experience.., personal experience used to prove that The Sun went around Earth. That was later disproven.
When taking about something that is spiritual..., little or nothing can be done to prove a belief.
But, with 'reason' and logic.., some things can be disproven or have so much doubt cast upon them that they can be discarded.
That is my point with the question about who the god is that the literature keeps talking about. NA is vague and evasive on that issue.
NA makes claims about what He will do, what His nature is, but won't take a stand on His identity even though a prayer written to the Christian god is recited at every meeting.
Their logic?
That by removing the references to Jesus Christ it is no longer a prayer that is exclusively to that god. It is at that point to whomever the god really is. Or to whomever any particular members personal beliefs identifies.
That is the hope.
I will start a thread on this point in a while.
But in regard to 'dogmatic'..., there should never be a problem with questions then.
well you will get a lot of evasive answers on this forum and in NA, unfortunately NA, although it says its a spiritual program and not religious is like any other dishonest dope fiend move, it is steeped in Judeao-Christian mythology, the santa-claus God watching every move you make etc.
I would say work the steps and you will find your own answer. Not to be disrespectful to your concerns or beliefs but there is room in NA for everyone. The God thing ehh it does get old
Matt F.
i wont allow disrespect around here its a form of dissension and disruption so i'm removing your post, if you don't like it an can't accept that then move on to another board but i'm giving one warning here, and this was it the next one you'll find your self blocked from posting again.
I look forward to tying some of these 'threads' together with you.
FEW will deny there isn't a christian based idiology in this program and the father of this program AA BUT BUT BUT BUT your decision as to what higher power you have in your life is yours, if you dont like the one thats accepted widely here go make your own 12 step program and completely leave a higher power out of it , there you go problem solved.
Now get done with this real soon your testing my principles over your personality and your troublesomenessnessness
None of us get to decide which Higher Power we have in our life. We only have the spirit that created us. The only option we have is what we believe we have. Not what we actually have.
You get the distinction, right?
I can't decide, for example, that I want Jesus in my life, and then have Jesus in my life, unless he really does exist.
If He doesn't..., all I have is a belief that He exists and is in my life.
You can see that right?
The same for any deity that I can put my belief/faith in.
The thing that I can't decide for myself, is who He REALLY is.
He alone decides that. We have either heard of Him, or we haven't.
So, the 3rd step say's, 'as we understood Him'.., and it is generally believed that I can decide for myself who he is. Up to, and including, the Hindu god Vishnu, let's use as an example this time.
No amount of belief in His existence will cause Him to exist if He doesn't already.
Why would NA, who must have already considered it, be comfortable with individual members putting their faith into a nonexistent god?
Someone around the world will because of 'as we understood Him'.
If a Hindu, let's say this time, puts his/her faith in Vishnu, and claims to have been helped by Vishnu in meetings, but.., at the beginning of the meeting seeks serenity from Yehweh..., that person has effectively invoked two different deities in their recovery.
Only one of which could possibly exist.
NA's failure to take a stand on who the god is, allows for that problem to happen.
If the Hindu is correct in his identification of the spirit that created us..., and that is He is Vishnu, He is offended by us in the west who, for the most part, give credit to the Abrahamic god. The god of Christianity, Yehweh.
Exercise your brain.
The spirit that created us has a name. He is a certain individual. I am not complicating this..., I am trying to uncomplicate it for other members by asking questions that REQUIRE thought.
Hence my profile saying to FORCE a conclusion.
Exercise your brain. Once you get started, it is easy.
There is only one god.
If a Hindu credits Vishnu, and Vishnu does not exist..., what can he expect to hear from the spirit that created us IF he is persuasive in meetings and causes another member to follow Vishnu?
By the same token, if a member credits Jesus Christ, and it turns out that He doesn't exist either, what can they expect for leading people into that belief?
NA does not care that both of those situations are happening to someone.
My point is this..., The Serenity Prayer is an acknowledgement of Yehweh. It doesn't make sense to recite it to another god than Him. But there is also a problem with it.
James all I know is I am one of little faith when it comes of christian stories and even the bible, but i'm not mocking it or even going to disbelieve. I have been told to stay open minded to everything and that includes others opinions and experiences, i've been told that if I am desperate enough I might become willing to try certain things like maybe trying prayer and meditation, trying the 12 steps, and just see what comes of it, and I have, I am better for it coming up on 5 years clean.
And I have had my own personal experiences, I have a higher power now in my life that walks with me threw life, it's name is Father .
Yeah Big V., Most of what I believe comes from personal experience.
I guess that really only qualifies me so far in the eyes of others.
I have researched The Bible a little bit since being raised in Christianity, and from what I've learned, things don't look so validated by 'intelligencia', so to speak.
The smarter people who have published what their conclusions are aren't convinced.
Oh well.
If we want solid evidence..., in support of The Bible, that is..., it might be possible in the future. Just not today.
