Athiest

ehipassiko · Member

Athiest

DeanC · Guru

Welcome to the board.

Quick question. Is talking about specific spiritual beliefs (in this case believing that there is no God) much different than talking about or promoting any other specific belief, such as Christianity?

-- Edited by DeanC on Thursday 15th of October 2009 11:21:58 PM

ehipassiko · Member

First, your statement:

"is talking about specific spiritual beliefs (in this case believing that there is no God) much different than talking about or promoting any other specific belief, such as Christianity?"

... builds the supposition that not having a spiritual belief is in and of itself a spiritual belief thereby inferring a certain faith in matters of the spirit.

Not believing is a god is not an act of faith or belief for me. So, yes; I do think it is a bit different. I had to have faith to believe in god. Since evidence (facts, not subjective conclusions) does not support the reality of a god, it is proper for me to not claim that there is one.

In other words, one view requires faith and one view requires evidence. If I ever came across actual evidence to support god as a fact, I would cease to be an atheist. My conclusion is not a belief. It is simply a conclusion drawn from factual evidence rather than subjective interpretations of personal experiential occurrences. It is therefore not spiritual.

The closest thing I come to "spiritually" is daily mediation and a devoted effort to use the tools for psychological improvement found in the steps. In fact, this is what I refer to when I talk about my daily "spiritual practice".

Personally, I go to meetings to get my batteries recharged and to be there for others. I'm not there to learn about anyone's particular religion or lack of religion. Please do not take my post as being some attempt at trolling. I've no need to try to go around telling people that there is no god. I don't argue spiritual beliefs in book studies or in meetings. My job is to recover and help others do the same. It was in that spirit that I made this post since I knew that it was hard for me as well as for the other atheists I know. It is important that being atheistic isn't a barrier to recovery.

Raman · Guru

Hello Ehip,,

Thanks for sharing.
I am truly impressed by the Courage and Serenity in your assertions.

I think the common bond we share is Meditation, from that springs Unity !

The only reason I have used capitals for Courage, Serenity and Unity is that they are common denominators, verily I belive that without those qualities, there is no real chance of staying together and recovering !

What do you think ?
Ive heard and read many atheists in recovery underline Principles, those very Principles providing them Guidance !

Raman · Guru

Pon refereing to the inside cover of the Basic Text, the symbol illustrates the point that
" there is space for all manifestations of recovery and comfort for all kinds of recovering addicts in Narcotics Anonymous".

I quote an old Americanism,

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight for your right to express it".

This can be said by atheist to theist or otherway around, basically allowing each other the freedom to believe what works best for that particular addict, and also fostering a sense of
"UNITY IN DIVERSITY"

My own ideology is based on taking Good Principles from faiths and practicing that to my advantage, a sort of eccletic arrangement !

DeanC · Guru

ehipassiko wrote:

First, your statement:

"is talking about specific spiritual beliefs (in this case believing that there is no God) much different than talking about or promoting any other specific belief, such as Christianity?"

... builds the supposition that not having a spiritual belief is in and of itself a spiritual belief thereby inferring a certain faith in matters of the spirit.

Not believing is a god is not an act of faith or belief for me. So, yes; I do think it is a bit different. I had to have faith to believe in god. Since evidence (facts, not subjective conclusions) does not support the reality of a god, it is proper for me to not claim that there is one.
In other words, one view requires faith and one view requires evidence. If I ever came across actual evidence to support god as a fact, I would cease to be an atheist. My conclusion is not a belief. It is simply a conclusion drawn from factual evidence rather than subjective interpretations of personal experiential occurrences. It is therefore not spiritual.

Sounds more like a definition of a "non-theist" except for the part about "based on factual evidence". Did you mean to say lack of factual evidence? Because saying that you have "factual evidence" that God doesn't exist is saying that it has been proven to you that God does not exist and you believe this to be true (hence a belief) in opposition to a lack of evidence to support a belief. Which is it? Either way, saying that something "works for you" requires a belief in a system or a belief system. And suggesting that others can experience similar results (in said belief system) is a form of promotion (is a promotion) of same.

Btw, I'm not disagreeing in your system, just asking the question, if it's appropriate to promote a particular belief (a belief that there is no God) in a non-denominational spiritual program?

Apparently you are a Buddhist, but decided not to share that with us. Isn't there a certain amount of faith required in that discipline? Do you have evidence for that or re-incarnation, or horoscopes? Not that I require any from you, just wondering if you treat all these subjects equally. biggrin

-- Edited by DeanC on Friday 16th of October 2009 05:43:31 AM

Kris_09 · Veteran Member

Welcome! There has been many people that have not believed in God or a "higher power", but upon working the steps "...came to believe that a power greater than ourselves..." Congrats on 10 years. I have an open mind toward others and their beliefs, and appreciate your openness and honesty. For me, I cannot do this without God. I shouldn't be alive today, and the only reason I am is because of God and the fact He has a purpose for me being here. I love God and wouldn't change my life for anything. I am so glad that you have done so well in your recovery. This program is about helping others and to give back to other addicts, and sounds like you're doing that with the homeless shelter and community center. Glad you're here!

ehipassiko · Member

Raman -

Thank you for the warm welcome! Yes, I do think it is about bringing to life the gifts found in the steps that fuels recovery wink

Yes, I'm really cool and supportive with what works for each and every member! As you say, it is our common bonds that create unity.

You know, back in the 80s there were still whites-only NA meetings going on?!? Fortunately, NA has continued to grow and mature so that everyone feels welcome in NA meetings!

DeanC -

Yes, I am a Theravada Buddhist.

"Apparently you are a Buddhist, but decided not to share that with us. Isn't there a certain amount of faith required in that discipline? Do you have evidence for that or re-incarnation, or horoscopes? Not that I require any from you, just wondering if you treat all these subjects equally."

Buddhism is an atheist "religion". There is no god, soul, devil, etc found in Buddhism. Also, Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation - that is a Hindu belief. My forum name, "ehipassiko" is a Pali word meaning "see for yourself". I didn't become an atheist because Buddhism told me to; rather, I was an atheist prior to going to Thailand and learning about Theravada Buddhism.

I based my my conclusion on factual evidence. When I look at anything that is or happens in the world, I see causes and conditions. I see biology, geology, cosmology, ect. What I see is a lot of facts supporting that one thing causes another.

When using the American lexicon to express what I think, I tend to use words people readily understand. Saying that I'm a secular humanist, a Theravada Buddhist or non-theist is unclear to people. Saying that I am an atheist (a: without; theist: god) is easily understood. I'd say that every atheist I know would - without doubt or regret - become theists if they found the factual evidence to support it. For me and the other atheists I know, it isn't about belief in the affirmative vs. a belief in the negative; for me and the other atheists I know it is about belief vs. an investigating to see if there is evidence to support the god supposition or if there is evidence to support the causality supposition. Where others see a divine intervention, I see cause and effect. In other words, I perceive no evidence to support the supposition that the hand of divine being makes "good" and/or "bad" things happen. It isn't a belief system any more than the scientific method is a belief system.

"Either way, saying that something "works for you" requires a belief in a system or a belief system."

No, I'm saying that there is evidence to support the supposition that atheists can use the program to recover in much the same way as theists do. There is no "belief" or "faith" that I am pushing. It would be inappropriate for me to walk into a meeting and tell everyone there that their HP does not exist. It would have been inappropriate for me to start a flame war on this board by telling everyone here that their HP does not exist. I never issued a challenge and I never do anything but share my experience, strength and hope. Likewise it is just as inappropriate for someone to walk into a meeting and tell me that not believing in god is okay because "'he' believes in me". Fortunately, I had a lot of time under my belt when passive-aggressive and authoritatively hubris statements like that were used to try to shame me into becoming a theist. Equally deplorable behavior came for folks who would do things like bring up as a topic their "concern" about "an atheist friend who was in recovery". When I became an atheist, we still said the Lords Prayer at the end of meetings.

It is because of my bad experience and the bad experience of others in NA that I try to ensure that atheists know that they too can recover in much the same way as their fellow atheists in recovery did. I'm saying that for every one of me, there are a lot more who didn't have the fortitude to withstand the hostility surrounding non-belief and who went back out never to be seen again. I'm also saying that there are atheists who want recovery and that creating barriers to accessing recovery is not what NA is all about.

DeanC - It seems as though you need to challenge me. I don't have a problem with that. However, I hope that you never apply the "just asking the question" tactic on an atheist that is walking in the door because you may very well send them right back out the door and to their death.

LeeU · Guru

"I hope that you never apply the "just asking the question" tactic on an atheist that is walking in the door because you may very well send them right back out the door and to their death. "

Bullpuckey. None of us is responsible for what an atheist or anyone else chooses to do when they walk in the door. Seems like u r trying to project a guilt trip onto Dean, just cuz he entered into a reasoned, intelligent dialogue on the subject raised, and perhaps you just "felt" challenged. Glad you are here, C4URself-whatever the belief system. :)

ehipassiko · Member

Kris_09 wrote:

Welcome! There has been many people that have not believed in God or a "higher power", but upon working the steps "...came to believe that a power greater than ourselves..." Congrats on 10 years. I have an open mind toward others and their beliefs, and appreciate your openness and honesty. For me, I cannot do this without God. I shouldn't be alive today, and the only reason I am is because of God and the fact He has a purpose for me being here. I love God and wouldn't change my life for anything. I am so glad that you have done so well in your recovery. This program is about helping others and to give back to other addicts, and sounds like you're doing that with the homeless shelter and community center. Glad you're here!

Thank you for the welcome!

Yes, I think it is absolutely fine for people to have belief or no belief and it certainty isn't my business to persuade people one way or the other. I'm really happy that recovery is working for you and that your faith has helped you in your recovery!

When I see the whole "power greater than myself", I see "causality". In other words, if I do the things that lead to being happy, clean and sober, I will be happy, clean and sober no matter what my old thinking has to say about it. In other words, if paying my taxes on time leads to happiness, then I will pay my taxes on time even though a part of me wants to procrastinate and whine about it.

On a side, actually I have 21 years, 7 months and 28 days clean and sober aww

DeanC · Guru

ehipassiko wrote:

Yes, I am a Theravada Buddhist.

Buddhism is an atheist "religion". There is no god, soul, devil, etc found in Buddhism. Also, Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation - that is a Hindu belief. My forum name, "ehipassiko" is a Pali word meaning "see for yourself". I didn't become an atheist because Buddhism told me to; rather, I was an atheist prior to going to Thailand and learning about Theravada Buddhism.
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You really dodged my question about the faith aspects of Buddhism (and horoscopes lol). It is a religion and as such would contain historical elements and other details that are not of this world and could hardly be "proven" by "evidence". Here I clipped the first thing that google gave up under a search for "Buddhism, atheist religion".

"The Buddha himself rejected metaphysical speculation as a matter of
principle, and his teachings focused entirely on the practical ways to
end suffering.

On the other hand, the Buddha
did not explicitly rule out the existence of a God or gods, and very
shortly after his death a devotional element formed within Buddhism.
Stupas were built to contain relics of the Buddha and pilgrimmages were
made to places where he had walked.

Soon the
idea of past and future Buddhas developed, with Maitreya, the Buddha
yet to come, being especially important. In the Mahayana system, a
variety of celestial Buddhas and bodhisatvas came to be revered and
looked to for assistance on the path to enlightenment. Especially
devotional is Pure Land Buddhism, a subdivision of Mahayana that began
in China. Pure Land Buddhists revere and call on the name of the
Amitabha Buddha, who will grant them entrance to the paradisical "Pure
Land" after death. {3}

As
Buddhism spread into cultures with existing religious beliefs, it
incorporated local deities and religious practices into the Buddhist
system. For instance, in China, a popular boddhisatva became the female
deity Kuan-yin, the giver of children. {4}

Finally,
Tibetan Buddhist cosmology features a "vast number of divine beings
(each with its own family, consort, and pacific and terrifying
aspects), which are considered symbolic representations of the psychic
life by the religiously sophisticated and accepted as realities by the
common people." {5}
There are six realms of existence in the Tibetan cosmology, one of
which is the realm of the gods. The gods enjoy the fruits of good karma
in a paradise until their karma runs out and they are reborn in a lower
realm. In fact, gods must be reborn as humans to attain enlightenment. {6}

In
view of the above factors, scholars and Buddhists alike tend to
describe Buddhism as atheistic in the sense that it denies an eternal
creator God {7}, while recognizing its theistic and devotional elements. The Encyclopedia Britannica explains,

While the contemplative elite may deny the real existence of gods and
demons together with the rest of phenomenal existence, the majority of
Buddhists from the earliest times in India, and in other countries
where Buddhism has spread, have never neglected indigenous religious
beliefs. {8}"

And so I assume that you can prove the existence of Buddhas, Bodhisatvas, Karma, the female
deity Kuan-yin, the giver of children... (this is a short list lol)

_________________________________________________________

I based my my conclusion on factual evidence. When I look at anything that is or happens in the world, I see causes and conditions. I see biology, geology, cosmology, ect. What I see is a lot of facts supporting that one thing causes another.

_______________________________________________________________

Let me get this one straight, you are omni present (sort of like a God ) and have been an eye witness to all cases of "divine intervention" world wide, and had the resources to do scientific fact finding on them all to support your "conclusions"?

_______________________________________________________________

When using the American lexicon to express what I think, I tend to use words people readily understand. Saying that I'm a secular humanist, a Theravada Buddhist or non-theist is unclear to people. Saying that I am an atheist (a: without; theist: god) is easily understood.

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If "Atheists" wish to appear neutral about other's beliefs (like most of them claim) as if merely having an absence of belief, as you claim, why do a lot of them expend considerable energy politicizing their belief (or non-belief)? It's as if they became "anti-religionists" <---- my term lol.

I understand that many have agendas and extremely personal agendas sometimes. An example, those recoiling from the religious rights rejection of the
idea of Gay marriage. I noticed on your webpage a link to a very nicely done
montage of pictures of ghost towns and graveyards, which I thought was excellent. Then I noticed that you subscribed to a youtube video blogger Pat Condell, whom I could only describe as a anti-religious protagonist. A Rush Limbaugh type, if you will lol.    His video "The arrogance of Clergy" was in your youtube subscriptions list, I posted it below. Let's have a look at it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/u/0/STlYN5KCiWg

Now, if a said "anti-religious" person with a personal agenda came into a spiritual program and the first step inside the door announces "I didn't need a higher power and you don't either...", might this be considered a conflict of interest to say the least?

_____________________________________________________________

Where others see a divine intervention, I see cause and effect. In other words, I perceive no evidence to support the supposition that the hand of divine being makes "good" and/or "bad" things happen. It isn't a belief system any more than the scientific method is a belief system.

________________________________________________________________

Hmm...last time I checked, science is largely based on certain theories, and the scientific community either believes or doesn't believe in them (depending on who's paying them lol.

_____________________________________________________

I'm saying that there is evidence to support the supposition that atheists can use the program to recover in much the same way as theists do.

______________________________________________________________

Certainly they can recover and many do well, whoever the give up a lot without a higher power, and it increases the difficulty considerably.   There is also the continuem of the feeling of "outside looking in" that is a common denominator of us all, in regards to working the program.   I believe they stuggle, and your latest blog entry indicates sort of what I'm talking about.

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There is no "belief" or "faith" that I am pushing. It would be inappropriate for me to walk into a meeting and tell everyone there that their HP does not exist.

______________________________________________________________

Like you just did. I mean you're very first post? Most people introduce themselves to the group.

____________________________________________________________

It is because of my bad experience and the bad experience of others in NA that I try to ensure that atheists know that they too can recover in much the same way as their fellow atheists in recovery did. I'm saying that for every one of me, there are a lot more who didn't have the fortitude to withstand the hostility surrounding non-belief and who went back out never to be seen again. I'm also saying that there are atheists who want recovery and that creating barriers to accessing recovery is not what NA is all about.

________________________________________________________________

Now we're getting to heart of the matter. You have resentments.   I've never seen anyone chastise an atheist or an agnostic in or around a meeting, and I've been attending them since '75. I'm not saying it doesn't happen    Admittedly, 95% of those meetings were AA meetings. I have seen my share of zealots (mostly Christians) announcing their "brand" brand of spirituality and I find that equally as distasteful. I have known quite a few "non-theists" and agnostics (I was one myself). A couple of them complained about the program being "Christian based" and they were irritated but it seems that they went out of their way to irrate themselves. The program is what it is, and it's neurotic to want to change it. If I had my way though , members would either refer to there belief as a higher power or spiritual practice. Imo, it's the whole "believe, don't believe" thing that turns people off.    If a "higher power" doesn't work for someone, couldn't they just say "the higher power thing didn't work for me, but I was able to work the program without it. And if you'd like to know more about that, get with me after the meeting.

-- Edited by DeanC on Friday 16th of October 2009 02:22:19 PM

ehipassiko · Member

LeeU wrote:

"I hope that you never apply the "just asking the question" tactic on an atheist that is walking in the door because you may very well send them right back out the door and to their death. "

Bullpuckey. None of us is responsible for what an atheist or anyone else chooses to do when they walk in the door. Seems like u r trying to project a guilt trip onto Dean, just cuz he entered into a reasoned, intelligent dialogue on the subject raised, and perhaps you just "felt" challenged. Glad you are here, C4URself-whatever the belief system. :)

What I am saying is that I am here for the newcomer and it is my job to ensure that they are welcomed, heard and valued. If I personally challenged a newcomer's lack of belief when they can in the doors, I'd be erecting a barrier to thier recovery.

It is kinda like the whites-only meeting NA used to have. Challenging a newcomer's lack of Caucasian ancestry is erecting a barrier to recovery for the non-Caucasian. NA doesn't tolerate that kind of standard any longer because we recognize that the value of a newcomer's life is worth more that our own personal bias.

In an absolutest sense, you are right that nobody is responsible for another's recover. However, compassion is the "spiritual" mortar that holds NA together and is the reason for our slogan, "one addict helping another is without parallel". Being aware of passive-aggressive questioning about faith when working with an atheist newcomer is the appropriate thing to do. When working with a newcomer, it is my job to remember that outside those doors are jails, institutions and death because sometimes they don't fully understand that yet. People have been shamed right out the door for not being a theist and I've never seen those people again.

I'm just hoping that those of you who read about my experience will take it into consideration if/when you work with someone who is an atheist.

Raman · Guru

Congrats on your clean time ehip.

These sort of discussions usually challenge our respective comfort zones; but much good could come out of intelligent debate !

Seems like the benefits come when I participate or observe these situations with an open mind.
So instead of resortig to pre-fixed theory, when I am willing to let new theory emerge from these discussions, Ive always been rewarded immensely.

The Basic Text says that what we know ,especially about the truth is subject to revision. The assumption also is that this is a never endin process, this earning !

That said however, I realized many years ago that the TRUTH is a Pathless land, and dosent require any -"ism".

It is there, the TRUTH and it is upto me, the individual to experience it !

ehipassiko · Member

For the record, re Buddhism: You are mixing and matching Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. The Dharma teaches anata. If you were to take the time to understand that concept, you'd understand how I claim that I do not have evidence for a god. You are looking at Buddhism through uniformed Western eyes and bringing to it all of your own cultural bias.

It is amazing to me that you put in the time and effort to search for quotes to refute the idea that I do not have faith and then went further, reading my blog, checking out my website, looking me up on YouTube, etc to then present your case to this forum. When I put that much energy into something, it is because it is personal to me. I don't have a problem with you having a problem with me or my practice because that isn't any of my business.

While your last paragraph starts with a passive-aggressive assumption, you move into a more open and friendly dialogue that I enjoyed and could relate to.

I agree that the program is what it is. I never said that it should change. Any problems I ever had with people thanking a particular deity were my own and I certainly don't have a problem with it now, years down the line.

I've got to say that while you've shown me a lot of arrogance, you seem to (needlessly) be on guard thinking that I'm here to change NA, convert people or to whine, which is, in a way, looking out for the unity of this forum. Certainty, if I did any of those things, I would be acting - selfishly - out of resentment. If I did any of those things, you'd have reason to try to put me in my place. As it is, I simply introduced myself and shared my path in recover so that others like me know that they too can recover. I hope that you go back and are able to take in the reason I made my post without distorting it through assumptions, fears and/or concerns.

I am not here to argue for or against belief. I am only here because it is important for other atheists to know that there are others who were able to recover and achieve long-term sobriety/clean time.

I'm not here to challenge you about your belief/faith and I'm not here to have my path to recovery challenged. I'm happy to answer questions about how I could work the program if you want to know, but my post is mainly for the person who finds that theism is a barrier to their recovery.

ehipassiko · Member

Raman wrote:

It is there, the TRUTH and it is upto me, the individual to experience it !

Wow! Great post Raman! I really enjoyed reading it!

Tahir · Member

Welcome Ehipassico, thanks for sharing the miracle of recovery through Narcotics Anonymous, It Works!

I have a friend who is also an atheist. He just celebrated 10 years clean in my hometown. In fact, he is one of the first oldtimers in the fellowship who reached out to me, cared for me, and shared with me the miracle of NA. Also, he continues to be my Mentor in NA Service today.

I guess all we need is to 'come to believe that NA might work for us'

Fellowship hugs, Tahir from India.

ehipassiko · Member

Wow! Thank you for sharing your experience! That gave me cold chills (in a wow! that is sooo cool way)!

NA is an amazing program!

-- Edited by ehipassiko on Friday 16th of October 2009 03:37:45 PM

DeanC · Guru

ehipassiko wrote:

For the record, re Buddhism: You are mixing and matching Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. The Dharma teaches anata. If you were to take the time to understand that concept, you'd understand how I claim that I do not have evidence for a god. You are looking at Buddhism through uniformed Western eyes and bringing to it all of your own cultural bias.
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I didn't "mix" anything, I merely copy pasted an article about Buddhism and again asked you a question which you dodged. Obviously you have faith in aspects of your religious practice that "proof" isn't available for. In you blog you mentioned that "your horoscope was right..." Do you believe in those also? Any proof for that? I believe the word some would use is hypocrite, but I wouldn't use that word, I prefer intellectual dishonesty .

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It is amazing to me that you put in the time and effort to search for quotes to refute the idea that I do not have faith .

_______________________________________________________

You're confused again, I was asking you to explain why you hold, a belief in God or a "higher power", to such high standard such as "proof" and "evidence" and don't hold you're own religious aspects of faith to the same standard. In fact you went on and on about how God doesn't exist and don't even want to talk about your own religion. Nice work with the misdirection though .

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and then went further, reading my blog, checking out my website, looking me up on YouTube, etc to then present your case to this forum.

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You're the one that went all ballistic in your second post.
If you didn't want us to go to your web page/blog with links to youtube ect... then why did you post it in your public profile? There really wasn't a lot there, I spent 3 minutes.

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While your last paragraph starts with a passive-aggressive assumption,

____________________________________________________________

I guess if someone is to be a victim they'll need to find a villain. Glad that I could be of service Are you also a psychologist?

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I've got to say that while you've shown me a lot of arrogance

__________________________________________________________

someone needs to care enough to read and understand what others are trying to say. Learning how to have civil discourse, without making derogatory remarks works also. Try not to take it personal when people disagree with you, especially if you're determined to live your life as a contrarian, and very outwardly asserting your controversial beliefs immediately upon meeting a group of strangers.

If you go back and reread, no one challenged your beliefs, your program, or you. This board doesn't need protection (We have Big V for that lol) and you are just as welcome to be here as anyone else. I'm looking forward to your E,S&H.

cheers,

-- Edited by DeanC on Friday 16th of October 2009 05:01:47 PM

2ndtimearound · Senior Member

You all have my head spinning, and suddenly I dont feel quite intelligent enough for this discussion !! So Ill just give a Big Welcome to Ehip and wish her Serenity and peace.

ehipassiko · Member

Re Buddhism: Again, you just don't know what you are talking about. You believe that one must have faith to be a Buddhist. That concept is completely foreign to Buddhism. In fact, it is the complete and total opposite of Buddhism is.

Your overall tone is pithy and condescending. For instance,

"In you blog you mentioned that "your horoscope was right..." Do you believe in those also? Any proof for that? "

You seem to be hinting at a conclusion you drew and that conclusion seems to be that because I mentioned my horoscope in my blog, I must have faith. What you don't know is that one of my best friends is an astrologer and regularly reads my blog. In other words, I was tipping my hat at her. You read something without having an understanding and built an inference that you then used to mock me.

"Any proof for that? "

You've no need to pick an argument with me.

You are trolling me at this point. Please stop.

LeeU · Guru

Good golly miz Molly...it is SO FUN when Dean (who I love & respect dearly) gets going!! Haven't seen a such fancy back & forth discussion in a while. Being a recovering debater myself, I am getting an immense kick out of this.

Hey-2ndXaround- not 2 worry...it's just a sign that we still have some working brain cells...always a good thing, even if it can be as much a liability as a blessing (speaking solely for self).

BigV · Senior Member

Its about spiritual principles thats all I know , of which i dont work real well but i try...

From the spiritual tenets of NA

4.Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual program, not a religion.

Spirituality is the relationship a person has with what they believe in. A religion presents a specific concept of a deity, a specific code of ethics, and a specific method. In N.A. we believe, unconditionally, that all members have a right to their own religious beliefs and concept of a higher power. N.A. is inclusive rather than exclusive. Each of us follows our own path based in spiritual principles; we believe in believing and have faith in faith. Our fellowship is based on learning how to apply spiritual principles in our daily lives; coming together for mutual support and care; and one addict helping another through sharing, sponsorship and service. Narcotics Anonymous recovery is something that happens within the individual; it is the way we live; we are Narcotics Anonymous.

-- Edited by BigV on Saturday 17th of October 2009 11:13:01 PM

MIKEF · Guru

Welcome to the forum!congrats on your clean time.We do recover.Peace mikef

ehipassiko · Member

BigV wrote:

Its about spiritual principles thats all I know , of which i dont work real well but i try...

From the spiritual tenets of NA

4.Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual program, not a religion.

Spirituality is the relationship a person has with what they believe in. A religion presents a specific concept of a deity, a specific code of ethics, and a specific method. In N.A. we believe, unconditionally, that all members have a right to their own religious beliefs and concept of a higher power. N.A. is inclusive rather than exclusive. Each of us follows our own path based in spiritual principles; we believe in believing and have faith in faith. Our fellowship is based on learning how to apply spiritual principles in our daily lives; coming together for mutual support and care; and one addict helping another through sharing, sponsorship and service. Narcotics Anonymous recovery is something that happens within the individual; it is the way we live; we are Narcotics Anonymous.

-- Edited by BigV on Saturday 17th of October 2009 11:13:01 PM

Thanks for your post, BigV! I've always loved the freedom NA encourages for each to have their own path.

I especially like "Each of us follows our own path based in spiritual principles; we believe in believing and have faith in faith"

Thanks for posting that quote! It is actually a favorite of mine. It really sums up that spirit of openness NA is famous for. I love that this sentence clarifies what belief and faith is in NA: A personal belief (verb) in belief (noun) and a personal faith (verb) in faith (noun).

One ol' guy explained it to me like this: "You see a TV commercial about deodorant and it looks good, so you decide to buy it when you go to the store. This is belief; you concluded that what you were told in the ad was true. So, when you get home and try it out to find that it does work; well, then you now have faith in that product."

I've always loved that explanation of what belief and faith is because it is, in fact, the scientific method. It is what is meant behind the AA slogan, "Faith without works is dead".

For me, I use the term "atheist" because people understand it and it is easy to be clear about the major point (that I am godless). "Pantheist" is a better fit, but nobody seems to be familiar with that term. As a pantheist, I often sound exceedingly spiritual or even religious at times. The belief and faith I have in the amazing and mind-blowing power of causality can sometimes be close to rapturous. As a pantheist, I see that causality - the laws that govern reality - as being the root of DNA and of flowers and even the thoughts I have about deities. The probability that any of us is here is just incredible to the point of it being rightly referred to as being "impossible"!

I like the following passage from a book that I read. I'm posting it here so that folks know what I mean when I use the sometimes archaic and culturally bias words I use concerning belief and faith in a god:

"Let's remind ourselves of the terminology. A theist believes in a supernatural intelligence who, in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation. In many theistic belief systems, the deity is intimately involved in human affairs. He answers prayers; forgives or punishes sins; intervenes in the world by performing miracles; frets about good and bad deeds, and knows when we do them (or even think of doing them). A deist, too, believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter, and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs. Pantheists don't believe in a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a nonsupernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings. Deists differ from theists in that their God does not answer prayers, is not interested in sins or confessions, does not read our thoughts and does not intervene with capricious miracles. Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism."

The belief and faith I have as a pantheist can almost bring me to my knees with a sense of awe about the world around me. As a pantheist, my belief and faith is totally devoid of a deity.

I think a lot of the problems I and others have had from well-meaning and concerned people is that the word - which crystal clear about it's main point - "atheist" is seemingly mired down in vague ideals of complete relativism, amorality and self-centeredness. While "pantheist" perfectly sums up the reality of what atheism is (for me and the other atheists I know), it is troublesome to use because it is usually completely misunderstood. It sometimes feels like I say "rock" and everyone else hears "duck".

I do have a "spiritual practice" that has a belief and a faith that is 100% completely and totally devoid of any deity at all. At the same time, I can and do talk about "providence" and about a "higher power" in a completely metaphorical, pantheistic sense.

I love that NA is so open and supportive. I love that compassion is the fundamental bedrock of what NA is. That compassion literally saved my life and it is out of that same sense of compassion that I made this post. My hope is/was that it brought some clarity and understanding to the idea that one must have a belief and faith in a deity in order for recovery to happen.

I'm especially grateful to those who extended a welcome to this forum!

Thank you!

John · Senior Member

"The family. We are a strange little band of characters trudging through life sharing diseases and toothpaste, coveting one another's desserts, hiding shampoo, borrowing money, locking eachother out of our rooms, inflicting pain and kissing to heal it in the same instant, loving laughing, defending and trying to figure out the common thread that bound us all together."

ehipassiko and DeanC...

You remind me of family... a sister that couldn't do anything without irriating her brother, even when thats not what she was trying to do, a brother that liked to pull his sisters hair for no other reason than she was sitting there, ...

But having carefully read both of your posts here, I venture to say that if DeanC was being picked on at the bus stop, his sister ehipassiko would be the first one to run to his defense and if ehipassiko fell off her bicycle, her brother DeanC would be the first one to run over to see if she was okay, help her up, and give her a hug.

In my almighty opinion...

if we stay clean we get G.O.D...

Good Opportunities Delivered

If we use we get G.O.D....

Good Opportunities Destroyed.

Love all of you folks...what you believe or don't believe is irrelevent to me, I just want each of you to know in your heart of hearts that I believe none of us ever have to use again.

There are a vase array of positive and negative influences in the world, today my greatest hope is that I will recieve from and give to the positive, be a light of warmth, a word of love, and a place of rest.

In the spirit of peace and recovery,
John

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