I have 4 months clean , but I've 'been coming to n/a meetings for about 20 years, I have learn to help other addicts to the best of my ability, I'll try to make this as brief as I can , the other night I gather some guys to go take a meeting to the house of an addict who's dying , this one guy who was not part of the group over heard and volunteered to take 4 guys in his car, upon arriving to the persons home he abrutly deceided this really was not something he wanted to do , and that he was not going to stay, the four guys he brough had no choice but to be driven home by this guy because they had no means to do so after the visit, once he drove them home he hung around and began ranting about how he did not like the guy we where going to see and that he was an evil nigger, the other guys got on his case , but he simply blew them off, now I find out he's been picked to do a twelve step series, my question is, should this be allowed , this person oviously has no recovery , he may have clean time, but he's an angry and hatefull person, should'nt something be done........ any feed back is greatly appreciated
please don't be afraid to speak your mind, is not like we're gonna be judged here is it...
-- Edited by salvagable on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 10:02:20 PM
-- Edited by salvagable on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 10:06:03 PM
-- Edited by salvagable on Tuesday 11th of August 2009 11:03:53 PM
Picked by whom?? I personally dont care if a person has 20 days or 20 years clean, its all in if they are "working" and living the recovery program!! It does not sound like this guy is doing either! This program is one of spirituality. I cannot believe that if the person who picked him really knows him, they would even think of having him influence anybody else!!!
Well well well, just my cup of tea, this thing about bringing out what is spiritual and not.
It is wrong to be calling a bro. addict thats dying an evil nigger etc. Thats perhaps the most -non-recovery language one can ever hear.
Salvageable, you also said that this guy is psychotic; is this your inference based on his behaviour or is this guy diagnosed with psychosis and is on medication that can make him incorrigable ? His behaviour is wrong, if one may conclude that part of it.
The other side is that if the guy was'nt actualy diagnosed with psychosis, then it is not fair to judge, especially in NA. The only ones that I have found calling an addict a psychotic, lunatic, etc. are those passersby from other Fellowship who come to NA meetings now and then to entertain themselves and make this sort of mischief. The point is, this guy maybe cool around others and it maybe that some situations do get our ire, no matter how long we stay clean.
I think it is appropriate to consider the following example from my hometown, something tha happened about 5 years ago.
There he was, this guy who had stayed clean sometime, who had done few things for NA and in the opinions of others was also responsible for a lot of disservice. He was laid out on the hospital bed and was dead, waiting to go to the morgue, and later funeral. I had known this guy for many years, bith in using days and in cleantime. He had his plus and minus points, accodring to me. He also seemed quite popular in the Fellowship, especially in hanging out with newcomers who needed company in the early days of clean time.
I hovered around and helped a bit till the morgue. When they put his body in the freezer, I looked in and saw another young guy in there, and wihout thinking I say "Hey, C's got company in here too"
The funeral service was the thing that brought up issues. There wera the many that attended, especially those who he had spent time with outside of the meetings.
But an equeal number boycotted the funeral because they had either been pained by this guy in a personal context or by the things he had done in NA service that was not considered appropriate. Therefore just as he had many for him, there was an equeal number against.
The theme there, I believe is that nio matter how tight our Spiritual Program is, we will never be acceptable to all.
Now coming back to the guy you are reffering to, there must be some cause for resentment; however, that cannot come in the way of carrying the life sacin message of NA. Therefore it may be a good idea to speak to the guy that is arranging this whole act.
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Hello! My thoughts also were "what group picked him" but on the backside of that 'more will be revealed " tells us 'BY GIVING UNCONDITIONAL LOVE IN THE FELLOWSHIP,WE BECOME MORE LOVING AND BY SHARING SPIRITUAL GROWTH WE BECOME MORE SPIRITUAL.now the question still is "who wants to talk with him or the group that picked him? Anthony also points out"if it aint practical ,it aint spiritual..that may be an adventurous meeting!
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Our purpose is to remain clean,just for today,and to carry the message of recovery.
Thank you all for your coments, and your right I don't know if he's been actually diagnosed as mentally inbalanced, I'm basing my opinion on the times I've heard him share ,it seems he has some very deeply rooted child hood traumas , once he said he used to place drugs inside other students lockers, then make anomymous phone calls to the principal ratting out the poor bastards, some times for revenge and some times cause he simply did not like the person, his own sponsor stated to me that the guy is inbalanced , but he also said that it's a miracle he has been able to stay clean for as long as he has, he told me he understood my anger with this person and he also said that in order for me to grow in my own recovery I have to learn to forgive this person, I supose it makes sense, I've share this at a meeting where all I got was pretty much my own inventory being taken, the person responsible for picking the guy to do the step series is another sick and suffering addic, what can I say about his judgement he knows the guy and saids hey if he's worked them he might have something to offer who knows, all I know is I wont be there to find out, I'll skip those meetings as I don't want to become incensed and star a scene, I belive for the good of the program is best that I don't attend , like his sponsor said I'll learn to forgive him, but that doesn't mean I'll sit there and listen to his bullshit.......thanks..
Psychotic or not, diagnosed or not, on meds or off, clean or not...hate is hate...and I've never read, heard or experienced anything in decades of multiple fellowships in multiple states that ever let someone spew hatred in a meeting for more than the first few minutes. Group conscience gets called and inevitabtly takes care of the problem. The person can choose to stay or go, but cannot stay and denigrate people, whether from ignorance or by design. To not confront it is to condone it, in the group conscience context. There are many behaviors that would never be tolerated at meetings, even if they are never mentioned in any literature. No, you can't set a fire in the wastebasket. No, you can't strip and run around the halls of the church basement. No, you can't call people hateful vile names.
And we don't have to apologize or accept having our inventory taken for not buying into the absurd notion that we should put up with such foul-mouthed, mean-spiritied crap just because some other well-meaning fool thinks his buddy just "might" have something to offer. Uh-uh...you can't give what you don't have. Good for you for taking care of yourself and looking for a healthier meeting for yourself.
Lee's rant of the day...this one made me boil!!!
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From dying and surviving to living and thriving. LeeU
SCREW U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sorry but you don't go around calling ppl psychotic. WE all earned our seats here crazy is not a requirement by using the word of your choice shows your own ignorance and give ppl the power they want when that termm is useed come on now I need to take my own advice in saying this WHERE ARE THE SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES???? better stop there
-- Edited by BigV on Friday 14th of August 2009 11:58:58 AM
-- Edited by Manon on Friday 14th of August 2009 03:53:39 PM
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Failure will never overtake me if my determination to succeed is strong enough. Og Mandino
This doesn't seem like you are being very nice to the people. I don't know alot about all of this but I think we need to help each other work on ourselves. If this is the way your group is I don't know if this is going to help me. I think that God will help us and he is the only one to judge me.
Wow Lee , You feel better sister ? Im kidding you girl. It obviously touched a nerve.
On this topic it helps me to remember that just as we all recover at different rates, We all begin at different places.
Its disappointing to see people with long times of abstinance forget or fail to apply spiritual principles . But its part of THEIR process . And we need to in a loving and caring way help them.
Im ok with using the words crazy or psychotic when applied to me. After all , a lifetime of Drs will and have backed that up. My insanity is my own . Today I can see my erratic behavior and I can CHOOSE to go with it or not. Im allowed in the program to be just as freaking insane as I want to be.
Lee also brought up a good point about responsibility . We are lucky to have freedom of speech . But with that freedom comes responsibility . We wouldnt think of boarding a plane and yellling BOMB. Or screaming FIRE in a crowded theater. But you are certainly free to do that if you are willing to face the music afterwards.
But back to your original question, SHOULD A PSYCHOTIC PERSON WITH CLEAN TIME BE ALLOW TO SPEAK A TWELVE STEPS SERIES.
Absolutley , The Adage we use is, If i fail to find recovery from anyone I speak with at any time its solely because I did not have any with me. Its true. If I choose to, I can find ES&H from anyone at any time. My chioce.
A psychotic has something to offer. A bigot has something to offer. A racist has something to offer.
We just need to be " right minded" while picking out the good stuff.
And most important for me......
A crazy ass redneck drug addict ( whos clean today ) has something to offer.
Thanks all Love ya Anthony.
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The fundamental delusion of humanity , is to suppose that I am here and you are out there .
Lot of different thoughts from different people.Its good to be able to hear and see all points of view.see what text says and take what you need and leave the rest..This was sparky but there have been "more sparky" interactions previously and I m sure more to come.! Enjoy this day,talk to you on the rebound!
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Our purpose is to remain clean,just for today,and to carry the message of recovery.
Our literature states something to this effect, some are sicker then others some have different levels of illness. Hell we're all mentally ill to some degree or we wouldn't have gotten ourselves in the state that we had so give others a break and work the program.
SCREW U!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sorry but you don't go around calling ppl psychotic. WE all earned our seats here crazy is not a requirement by using the word of your choice shows your own ignorance and give ppl the power they want when that termm is useed come on now I need to take my own advice in saying this WHERE ARE THE SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLES???? better stop there
-- Edited by BigV on Friday 14th of August 2009 11:58:58 AM
-- Edited by Manon on Friday 14th of August 2009 03:53:39 PM
I was simply describing my impression of this person, he can be any body , I didn't mention any names, it would have been ignorant and out of line if I had made his identity public which I have not , the question casts a wide net and I needed opinions in order to better deal wih it myself, I will not appologise just cause you think is ignorant, how the hell are we suppose to learn if we don't post difficult question, perhaps your are like me and are still in the early stages of recovery your self, perhaps you could expand on what do the spiritual principals have to do with my question.......take care...
Hey let's calm it down Manon salvagable is pretty much just asking some questions, has made some observation that bring some discomfort to him and he wants to know what to do , let's not take it as a personal attack because it's not.
Practice spiritual principles as much as possible this is an OPPORTUNITY to do so .
Try not to cut yourself off from meetings because of one person remember principles before personality's is one of the moto's used just for this reason.
The "n-word" really gets to me. I am an old civil rights activist. I remember as a child seeing real chain gangs in the South, brown men in white and black striped convict garb, picking cotton in the broiling sun. Whips and shotguns very present. I remember not being allowed to drink from the water fountain that said Colored Only. I remember the "progress" made when "colored" could finally sit at the lunch counter in the Five and Dime, but only in the last three seats, with a seat pulled out of the floor to separate that section from the rest of the stools. I remember hoses and dogs and death.
No problem with psychosis tho, I'm a whack-a-doodle myself! :)
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From dying and surviving to living and thriving. LeeU
You'd have to be mental to recognize Anth it's a matter of is the cup half full or half empty I came here mental spirit and physically ill things have improved though I am still sick in all 3 areas I must admitt but this is something you grow into over time and it's gotten much better then it was walking my first day into these rooms.
Lee the worst violence I have seen in places I have been have been among peoples own race to each other, talking the worst stabbings and killings were done among people of there own color or race, not really what one would expect but that's my own experience to memory.
And we don't decide who a member is thats an individuals choice so we have no say though in meetings we do have the right to ask a person to step out due to being disruptive to the rest of the group and I have seen the police called once at a meeting to remove a guy, he wanted to fight a whole room full of bikers man a few of those guys wanted to comitt murder could hardly hold back a few that was years ago and that same guy still goes to meetings nothings changed.
Are we done here yet ? beddy bye time for me
-- Edited by BigV on Sunday 16th of August 2009 01:27:01 AM
Hey let's calm it down Manon salvagable is pretty much just asking some questions, has made some observation that bring some discomfort to him and he wants to know what to do , let's not take it as a personal attack because it's not.
Practice spiritual principles as much as possible this is an OPPORTUNITY to do so .
Try not to cut yourself off from meetings because of one person remember principles before personality's is one of the moto's used just for this reason.
Thank you for your support, your recovery has oviously granted you sensibility, unlike some of the members who attend the meetings I go to, who jumped down my throat with out seemingly caring to take action on the matter, part of me wants to take the person who's visit started all this and sit with him in the front road , in order to look this looney right in the eye when he stars to share his experience, strenth, and hope and lets not forget insanity, maybe it might stirr some spiritual conciense deep inside him, but I doubt it, there's all ready talk going around , that is really gonna be interesting watching this individual lie thru his teeth, or who knows what, I'm stuill devating weather to go or not, the sick part of me wants to attend , but my recovery saids not to, I'm still devating..........
I was taught he without sin let him throw the first stone yes Manon needs to practice what she preaches but DAMN you can't just go around and call ppl looney
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Failure will never overtake me if my determination to succeed is strong enough. Og Mandino
Lets face it there are raciest people everywhere NA is no exception, but thats his stuff recovery and clean time dont always go hand in hand. when I go to meetings and see some of the madness that goes on it just reminds me to be that more diligent about my own recovery.
He is aloud to be where he is just like we all are free to have a God of our own understanding he is aloud to feel his hate of other races. the thing is for me is to let people be where thy are at and move on with my own recovery. Ask your self this- what is of more importance to you, his racism or your own recovery- after 20 years? Whats more devastating to you another relapse or some one else beliefs.
Ps. It was 16 years in and out before I could get 1y4m love and respect.
-- Edited by addict named charles on Sunday 16th of August 2009 02:39:52 PM
Salvage you do need to come up with another kinder more loving handle for that guy, fact is some are sicker then others most can't help it, often it's chemical or some sort of trauma so be a little more sympathetic is my suggestion.
Stay open minded to others suggestion on this topic without that we often are critical and judgmental of others I do it ALL THE TIME and have to put myself in check or my actions come out hurtful
Salvage you do need to come up with another kinder more loving handle for that guy, fact is some are sicker then others most can't help it, often it's chemical or some sort of trauma so be a little more sympathetic is my suggestion.
Stay open minded to others suggestion on this topic without that we often are critical and judgmental of others I do it ALL THE TIME and have to put myself in check or my actions come out hurtful
How about the sicker than others guy? no? I tried looney tunes but this Manon chick does'nt like that either, she starting to get on my nerves I've been holding back but I'll let loose eventually as I know she'll continue to push my buttons....
Well, calling a dying addict an evil,ole nigger may have earned the guy a top knuckle sandwich !
This is basicaly a Program for self-identification. This means I may call my self idiot, fool and at times mad, crazy etc. but I aint got no call labelling others. We can always use group concience and avenues like that to address our concerns, but labelling others only leads to dis- unity and dis-comfort.
That said and done, iI hope yall dont stop posting, this is a very pertinent issue and like Mikef said, we are getting different perspectives.
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
any feed back is greatly appreciated
Im kidding you girl. It obviously touched a nerve.
THANKS ANTHONY...YEP...FEEL MUCH BETTER LOL
it's a matter of is the cup half full or half empty 
I came here mental spirit and physically ill things have improved though I am still sick in all 3 areas I must admitt but this is something you grow into over time and it's gotten much better then it was walking my first day into these rooms.
beddy bye time for me
