whats the big deal about spirituality

Juicy · Newbie

whats the big deal about spirituality

trueakitalover · Senior Member

What's the big deal with spirituality in the program? hmmm let me see when I was using I was spiritually dead, I I thought I could do everything on my own and boy I will tell you sometimes I have to call on that God of my own understanding to help me out when I can't get a hold of anyone in my network, or when my sponsor is being a butt munch and shuts her phone off and doesn't answer her home phone. So that is where I will get down on my hands an knee's and pray to the God of My Understanding to help me get honest with my sponsor and to help me realize that I didn't like living the way I did. I am one of these people I know when I was using I was in the middle of a battle of flesh vs. flesh and I will tell you that was no fun for me at all. I was always running around thinking the devil was agter me and stuff. But since I have been clean I realize it was the drugs doing this to me.

Thanks,

Shannon

ryrym · Member

For me spirituality was a way for me to find hope. I felt so lost and hopeless before I started this program. Spirituality can take many forms but the main part of it that is necessary is a belief in something, anything that will help sort the conflicts in my head. Even if its just praying for the answer. Most of the time when I feel the need to ask, I already know the right thing to do I just need to quiet myself so that I can cut through what I want and what I should do. What I want to do usually isnt the right way to go about things.

Ryan

ryrym · Member

For me spirituality was a way for me to find hope. I felt so lost and hopeless before I started this program. Spirituality can take many forms but the main part of it that is necessary is a belief in something, anything that will help sort the conflicts in my head. Even if its just praying for the answer. Most of the time when I feel the need to ask, I already know the right thing to do I just need to quiet myself so that I can cut through what I want and what I should do. What I want to do usually isnt the right way to go about things.

Ryan

BigV · Senior Member

I came here self centered and morally bankrupt( I was a bad person, dishonest, insincere, ungreatful, hatefilled etc.) I didn't know how to feel good I only knew how to feel bad, spirituality gives me some good back in my life and one that is worth living.

It also makes my life MANAGEABLE and free from needing to use dope, because I used over the way I felt and I always felt bad today I don't feel bad as much, I say much because I do have some difficult times now and then and i get myself back on track though practicing spiritualty I get peace back into my head .

I have tired staying sober and clean without it and that didn't work for me.

-- Edited by BigV at 01:09, 2008-10-03

celtcgrrl · Member

Because without spirituality (we aren't talking religion here--we are talking addressing the state of your spirit) you can not have a moral center and without a moral center you can not be honest and without honesty you can not get sober.

Nuf said.

AnthonyG · Senior Member

HI linda , First of all i would like to thank you for your simple way of stating that question. Many me included can really complicate that question with a bunch of what ifs and your wrongs, and the ever present your all crazies.

I'm going to do my best here on a very simple well stated question.

The spiritual journey in its easiest form is simply discovering who we really are. What is the essence of my being ? The hindus say " at one with the immanent eternal self " Christians say. " The kingdom of God within yourself ' Buddists say " You are the Buddha "

So this realization of who we really are is at the heart of most spiritual traditions and journeys. In our culture ( USA for me ) this part of spiritualization is largely ignored . In an addicts world It can be cast aside entirely. I did not know nor did i care who I was. I wanted to know who you were so i could decide if i would be able to take advantage of you.

That kind of thinking contributed to a spiritual bankruptcy. That left me without any hope . I felt alone in the world. What started off as a wonderful enlightening experience ( drug use) That separated me from the rest of the world. Turned into an experience that left me broken and without direction. With no moral or spiritual compass to guide me i found myself adrift in the universe. Where did I fit in ?

   One of the toughest things for me here is realizing that getting clean and staying clean are not the same..I can get clean, but can i recover ? The spiritual part of this journey is what keeps me clean. I am not without purpose. I am a being. I am here and I exist.

By opening myself to these new ways of thinking i begin to feel a new sense of purpose in my life. For instance. Ive watched my daughter get off the school bus for many years. But did i ever really SEE her get off that bus ? Did i ever marvel at the way she carried herself ? Did i notice the confidence in her step ? Or be the least bit proud of myself for being there while she grew into this wonderful person? That kind of awakening permeates all aspects of my life today. At least i pray it does.

   I'm not very good at all this linda. I'm a baby at it. But through a spiritual awakening, I just don't get clean..I get clean AND free.. its a bargain really.

Thanks for letting me share and thanks for the question.

   Anthony G

imikens · Senior Member

Juicy,

Thanks for asking. And feeling comfortable enough to do so.

Part of the answer falls under the heading of understanding why we behave/think as addicts. Since "spirituality" is part of the medicine we need to take, understanding what it is treating and why it is treating it certainly is very necessary and appropriate. If your doctor wanted to give you chemotherapy for a broken ankle you'd be going, "Hey, wait a minute. How does chemotherapy fix a broken ankle?" But if you had cancer, the doctor explains to you how the medicine works to deal with that disease process, then regardless of the nature of chemotherapy, you go for it because you understand the medicine is the right treatment. Your commitment to compliance with the treatment regime is due in part to your understanding of the disease and WHY the chemo is the right medicine.

It is no different in recovery. If you will, "spirituality" is part of our medicine. Here's why. Part of the reason we act as addicts, see the world, others and ourselves from the addict mindset is because we have an over-inflated ego. Anyone who thinks addicts are weak doesn't understand addiction. We are some of the strongest folks around. We are so strong we are able to control and manipulate almost anyone at anytime in anyplace to achieve MY goals. Addicts are not weak people who just can't stand up. We are strong. Problem is we are TOO strong. The "medicine" aspect of spirituality is that in surrendering to a higher power we are submitting. Addicts do NOT want to submit to anything save themselves. In order to get healthy we have to deflate that over inflated ego. Surrender is absolutely necessary or we don't change our point of view. And for folks who just abstain without surrender, those folks are called "dry drunks". The don't drink. But on the inside, they are still addicts. Their "inside" is still unhealthy.

At the same time there is not a separation between the horizontal and the vertical. The horizontal being the unspiritual and vertical being the spiritual. This is a common mistake I see in the Christ centered recovery groups I participate in. There is not this kind of split. If you will notice the 12 steps are all "WE". It is the work we do in the relationships with others that IS the spiritual part. That is why the 12th step is what it is. "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs." If you notice the previous 11 steps you have to work out in relationships.

In the Christ centered recovery groups this is a favorite verse.

Matt 5:23-24
23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
(NIV)

Great verse. And you can see that relationships are of critical importance. But what happens is this verse is misused to imply there is a duality that is not true: on one hand the "go to your brother..." and on the other there is the "gift at the alter to God..." part. That is not what that verse is saying. It is not saying there are two distinctly separate acts. The 2 acts are part of the sum total of ONE act. Flip sides of the same coin if you will. A coin has 2 sides but its one coin. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

The work in relationships IS the spiritual part. The spiritual part puts us in a position to rightly understand ourselves, others and the world so that we can even attempt to have any kinds of relationships with people, ourselves or a Higher Power.

So spirituality is not just necessary for sobriety, recovery. It is necessary to be fully human. It is in being fully human that as a side effect we are sober. The target is to be fully human, be all I have been allowed to be, have the ability to be, deserve to be. The target is not being sober. If you make being sober the target, you get sober and then its "Okay, now what?" The target is to be fully human. Sobriety is a side effect. I can't be fully human and not be spiritual.

I don't know if that makes any sense but without the "spiritual" part, you aren't taking the medicine that is needed to get well. You maybe able to stay clean. You will not recovery however and instead be a dry drunk.

Albert Ellis is a big NO 12 Steps, its NOT a disease guy. He offers treatment that does not seem to have all of this spiritual stuff in it. While he's dead, his main book about addiction is called "When AA Doesn't Work For You, Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol". I've read some of it. Plan to read all of it. And while it isn't AA and it is Rational Emotive Therapy, guess where the impact of the changes take place? You got it, right smack dab in the middle of relationships. Relationship to myself, relationship to others, etc. So the "where we do the work", ends up being the same. I recommend his book by the way. It has a lot of great tools to address self esteem, how to unlearn and relearn thought processes, etc. I do NOT recommend the idea that we don't need group support, meetings, etc. of AA/NA/etc. We most certainly DO need them.

To get fully human I have to get this over inflated ego deflated. It has to be deflated healthfully as well. Its not ego mutilation that will make us healthy. Surrender and the spiritual aspect helps accomplish that goal.

Jim

-- Edited by imikens at 10:54, 2008-10-03

BigV · Senior Member

Juicy wrote:

I would like to know why everyone thinks that w/o spirituality you can not stay sober

The ONLY requirement is a desire to stay clean without that you don't stay clean it is the basis of our recovery.

Regardless of anything else any other condition you are free to to practice the NA program any way you feel is right for you in time you will decide what you want.

Read tradition 3

Davethewave · Guru

No one said you couldn't stay straight without it....no one has said you couldn't stay straight without NA......but have you ever heard of a dry drunk?

IF you want to follow our path you can look at a higher power as the groups, the 12 steps, or a higher power....or as any combination of all three. For me I was clueless how being honest, willing, and open minded was the beginning of being spiritual. Because i was a very self centered person and was wrapped up in the triangle of self obession, I had lost almost all thoughts of what a higher power might be able to help me achieve....

What I found was that by going to meetings, by caring for others, by praying that those in need find knowledge of god's will for them, and that they have the strenght and courage to carry that out.....my focus changed from me to others. By praying for others, my trials and tribulations diminished. It became easier for me to just ask him for help.

Not a day goes by that I don't ask myself "How have I asked for help today"

imikens · Senior Member

I'm the last person in the world to say a thing should look a particular way or be done in a narrow range of possibilities. The goal is the key and the goal is to get one's self rightfully and healthfully related to yourself, others and the world. Addicts are not and in part that is the vicsious cycle of our pain.

AnthonyG · Senior Member

Ive lately been reading a lot of zen, and though i admit most of it is far over my head I enjoy it very much and feel it goes hand in hand with my NA recovery process,
There is a zen master by the name of basho who i got really interested in because a close friend of mine died and had a notebook of last days thoughts on his nightstand. Included in his writing were quotes and haiku's of bashos.

Something this zen master said has become important to me of late so ill share it. " Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old ; seek what they sought "

This has become important because it put me WiTH the people that have gone before and after me in recovery.

There are some of us in this room that have something i want . I believe that by applying the spiritual principles of this program that even I can attain the sense of self that they have.

It gives me great comfort knowing that even though I'm not as far into the journey as they are, they are not leading me . they are simply walking with me.

imikens · Senior Member

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old ; seek what they sought"

Absolutely! That's what I have been pointing out regarding sobriety is an outcome, a side effect, a symptom, of the pursuit of the goal of being fully and healthfully human. The journey, if you will, to reach that goal is never ending. Sobriety is a requirement to be in and on that journey. My goal is not to be sober. My goal is to "seek what they sought..." I can't be fully human and be un-sober. I think that make sense.

So while I am a Christian I do not equate spiritual=Christian. That is not the case. Our spiritual part is just as real as our physical part yet we are one integrated being. You can't ignore the spiritual and get to being fully human. History is full of books and lives of folks who figured that out.

About as close as I can come to how that spiritual part works out in my faith is "Created in God's image..." Being fully human is acknowledging, feeding, and allowing that spiritual part to function. I also am not willing to say you MUST be on board with the spiritual part to stay clean. I am willing to say that to get to the being as fully human as I can, I have to acknowledge and be a physical, emotional and a spiritual person. I don't want to just by my will choose NOT to do something. I want to be fully human.

I think that makes sense.

Edit: I wanted to add this. We can get all "out there" with the spiritual piece and start sounding like we think we are Zen masters. That's not it either. In a practical way here's how it works in my life. I don't wake up in the morning and tell myself, "Don't take a Vicodin today...". I wake up in the morning and my goal is to grow, learn, be fully human. In that endeavor I both don't want or need a vicodin AND I know that taking a vicodin is counter-productive, suicidal if you will, in reaching that goal. It replaces the "Don't do this..." Vicodin, with "Do this..." becoming and growing. It changes the framing of the thing, the definition of the struggle and it changes my relationship to, the posture towards my substance of choice. Vicodin, any opiates for that matter, work against me, they are poison, the defeat my purpose. For me that has taken any desire to take them away. The price I have to pay to use them is far too high, far higher then the benefit of not using them. Makes it easier for me. Not sure if it will for others.

Don't follow the foot steps, follow what they sought...

-- Edited by imikens at 13:05, 2008-10-04

BigV · Senior Member

Don't follow the foot steps, follow what they sought...

Ooh I kinda like that but why not follow there footsteps if it leads to the place we all want to be? kinda like a pilgrimage LOL

imikens · Senior Member

Although, and here's how my mind works, it could just be a matter of hygiene. Like I don't walk right behind my dog when we go for walks? If you can connect the dots....

BigV · Senior Member

imikens wrote:

Although, and here's how my mind works, it could just be a matter of hygiene. Like I don't walk right behind my dog when we go for walks? If you can connect the dots....

Your terrible LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e46OEtucPNU

dan h · Senior Member

Juicy wrote:

I would like to know why everyone thinks that w/o spirituality you can not stay sober

Hi Juicy, thanks for your post. You have already read many of the various experiences of our members. I would like to point out what may be the most obvious point overlooked- In NA we learn to think for ourselves, ask our own questions, and seek our own answers. We each share our own experience to help each other. Here is the key to your question: I don't think that w/o spirituality YOU can't stay sober, but I know that without spirituality I can't stay sober. We each must find what works for us. For many of us, NA was the "last house on the block" and we had already tried everything we could think of and it "wasn't sufficient for us." So we came to NA, found the honesty to admit we needed help, the open-mindedness to listen to others, and the willingness to try what they said worked for them. When we honestly gave our best, it worked for us, too.
Good Luck on your journey, keep asking questions, keep seeking answers, and in the end I believe you will find what works for you.

DeanC · Guru

BigV wrote:

Don't follow the foot steps, follow what they sought...

Ooh I kinda like that but why not follow there footsteps if it leads to the place we all want to be? kinda like a pilgrimage LOL

my thoughts exactly. Jim, I really liked what you wrote, especially about being "fully human", although I'm in the "we are spiritual beings passing through a material (human) existence" camp. Meaning (to me at least) that our spiritual experience is more important (and longer lasting wink

) then our temporary human experience.

"Don't follow the foot steps, follow what they sought..."

It's pretty much the same thing, especially when you consider that when most of us got here we were pretty beat up and our brains were not up to such a philosophical task. That's why "duplication" is such an important part of the program.

DeanC · Guru

We had a similar discussion on the AA board, albeit religion was included in the topic. I copied my response there as it relates to the topic here.

"Agreed, there is no place in AA (or any other 12 step program) for religion. Members should be stopped in mid sentence when making any religious references. I've said it before, that I wouldn't mind if the word "God" was replaced, in the literature, with HP. I also think that spirituality could be explained differently, to include bonding with nature, which many of us do. It would also help if the concept of spirituality could be forever separated from religion, which in reality it is. Religion is a man made vehicle to help folks think and feel spiritually, and in most cases it fails. Mostly it's a deal that you read certain things, say certain things, and believe certain things, and pay certain monies, in exchange for a ticket to a place in after life.

Spirituality has nothing to do with that. It is concerned with now, the right now.

It would be better for all concerned if we focused on the purpose of connecting with an HP, instead of "joining the debate team". Those reasons being freedom from the bondage of self and self centered fear, which is "the chief activator of all of our defects of character" <---that's huge, in fact addressing these represents the bulk of the program.
Even if the "non believer" would approach this (relationship to an HP) as the practical use of a psychological model, such as inner child work in Acoa, they could see the benefit before the application. Is there a child living in my head? Probably not, but the exercises that I performed, as if there was, has helped me tremendously. The good news is/was, that I didn't have to "believe" that there was a child living in my head, in order to do the exercises and reap the benefits. I simply copied what millions of others in the program had done before me and got similar results. A pretty good deal actually wink

The reason that these "psychological models" work, is that our subconscious minds do not know the difference between a real experience and an imagined one, when it comes to emotions and learned behaviors. For example, in all the wars our country has fought in, from the revolutionary war till the Korean war, a large percentage of soldiers could not fire their weapons at the enemy. The percentage was somewhere close to half. Many of the civil war soldiers were found dead on the battle field, their rifle had been loaded 2 and 3 times but never fired.

Knowing that they had a serious problem, our armies substituted the bulls eye targets at the firing range with human silhouettes and bingo, 90 something percent of the soldiers in vietnam were firing their weapons at the enemy. Imagine the percentage of today's soldiers, of the video gamer generation, that fire their weapons after years of playing "first person shooter games"? Imo, that's one of the biggest reasons that school shootings are so common. Same reason that the Blue Angels, sit in chairs, in formation, with their eyes closed and, as a group, mentally go through their aerobatic performance before each show for practice.

Many of us have altered our memories, by reliving our resentments, over and over again, in our heads and imagining that the other person did or said more than they did (embellishing) and that we did less. After a few times, we start to believe the new story. When these people retell the story to someone else who witnessed the event, they seem patently dishonest, but in reality, the teller doesn't have a clue. I'm digressing here but hopefully I got my point across.

That is why, in the program, you'll hear "fake it till you make it" or "act as if", with regards to the steps that include HP. I believe that is says in the 3rd step "we just need for the door to be open a crack" to let the process begin.

Dean"

Tahir · Member

I have tried physical health, mind control, emotional strength and morality as a means to recover from my addiction over 7-8 years, but I always fell short after an initial burst of enthusiasm, and relapsed. When I was finally introduced to the one missing element which is all-encompassing of all other areas of recovery like physical, mental, emotional and social, it clicked for me. Everything else fell into place once I added the spiritual dimension to my recovery.

I strongly believe that I started using and used for over a decade and a half in search for something more meaningful and purposeful in life that I felt was lacking. I thought I had found this elusive, missing element in drugs as they seemed to elevate me to a whole new different level. And when the same drugs brought me down with a big 'thud' to my bottoms, I realized that they was not what I was lookin for after all...

I started staying clean, making meetings, reading NA literature, getting involved in service, fellowshipping etc. yet I always found myself pickin up after hard-earned clean times of half a year or so, thrice within a period of 2 years. That's when I picked up a Sponsor and started working the Steps. I never had to use again. And yes, I have discovered what I was missing even before I started to use - a conscious contact with my Higher Power, my return to my deepest self - my Spirit. As a result, I continue to recover, learn and grow, in all areas of my life.

dan h · Senior Member

Awesome share, Tahir. Thank you.

rocky · Senior Member

if you have to ask that question you are nowhere near the thought of being clean much less sober it does'nt have to be "god" it can be the people in your program the positive people you should have around yourself as you work this program i suggest you get the big book and read it till you get it without the spirit in my life i would have no life period i have been haveing all kinds of physical issues and without the spirit in my life i would have already used my spirit is'nt just my god its my na family and the positive people that i have in my life because i want to have a life that i can remember and not worry whether i am going to jail over some ignorant stunt i pulled while useing

Welcome to the Miracles In Progress Group of Narcotics Anonymous! This is not an official NA site, nor is it endorsed by the NA World Service Office.