Question about clean time

dan h · Senior Member

Question about clean time

DeanC · Guru

Boy I've never heard anyone seriously consider their clean (or sober) time to include slips but I have heard people use vocabulary like "I've been Around the program..." instead of IN the program. I went to my first meeting in 1975, second in 1977, third in 1978. Came back seriously in '87, went to meetings regularly but didn't
"Get It" until '89 so by those standards I'd have 33 years now

I'd have a hard time sponsoring someone who was on methadone and thought that that was clean time. Big difference between that and taking prescribed anti-depressents for bi-polar disorder. How are we going to feel our feelings and get down to our core issues about what makes us feel So uncomfortable in our own skin, that we have to use mood altering substances to "be ok" if we are self medicating our feelings so that they'll go away?

-- Edited by DeanC at 12:14, 2008-08-27

BigV · Senior Member

We minimize and often live in denial thats the nature of our addiction.

I tell people that they need to use there own conscience and be absolutely honest to themselves more then to anyone else.

If a person needs to detox and ween down I can understand getting a little help but it should not be something thats permanent, unless there is actual physical pain from say and accident or a disease and then it should be doctors supervision and taken as prescribed, this includes mental disorders and those medications.

There is no doubt that us dealing with life on its terms is an easy street, hell I think i'm bi polar just a tad I have all the symptoms and even suffer from depression , lately I have gone off on people in a bad way that is my lack of spirituality and I don't deny that one damn bit , I have some work to do somethings eating at me inside, discomfort that i haven't put an exact finger on yet but one thing is I am not turning these situations and people over and I am not practicing spiritual principles and this will make me make rash and unwise decisions and actions.

I left the auto repair shop this morning in a cloud of blue smoke from my tires, burning out all the way out of the shop area because the guy I made an appointment with told me he was to busy today. I took the day off from work to get this done and he laughs and tells me TOO BAD IM TO BUSY I also threatened to kick his butt if he laughed again at me, yeah that shut him up but I was shaking with rage. This is totally unnecessary of me and a real bad example of not accepting people places things and situations, I could blame it on something other then myself, I could say MAN i sure need to take some medication for this and fix it BUT I am responsible for my own spiritual growth and for my actions and I have fallen short of that today.

Anyhow thats my thought on this guys, I find i need to go a little easier on people who are in denial but do it in a way that is gentle and not character assassinating them, I certainly wont cast the first stone .

-- Edited by BigV at 13:13, 2008-08-27

Nikky · Senior Member

Is clean date/sobriety date a status symbol of some sort?? One certainly should be proud of not using for great lengths of time, I feel, but I've also been around some with long sobriety that turn me off and I do not want to be like them at all. I'm still not sure about the status symbol thing, because those with two days clean get more applause sometimes than those with millions of days clean.

One woman who slipped after over 35 years sober came to our AA meeting with head hung (you could tell she felt like shit). The next night it was all the buzz that she'd committed suicide.

I don't like to talk about my slips. Is it because I feel people will look down on me (program people, especially those with years clean)? Hell yes. I'll be goddamned if I'm gonna commit suicide over it. So now I'm an Absurdist about it, I'll say I have one hour clean (even if it's been years).

DeanC · Guru

Nikky wrote:

Is clean date/sobriety date a status symbol of some sort?? One certainly should be proud of not using for great lengths of time, I feel, but I've also been around some with long sobriety that turn me off and I do not want to be like them at all.

I hope that you meant you would at least like to have their clean time. Not using (one day at a time) for the rest of our life should certainly be a goal because we may not have another opportunity to get clean again. It's a crap shoot when we go out (talk about suicide). So time doesn't mean everything and it's not the end of the world if we relapse and are lucky enough to make it back in, but denial lives and breathes in that grey area inbetween. We do count our time and if we fool ourselves about it we are giving our disease room to work. We must focus on setting a goal every morning to make it through the day clean. If we do this then we probably will. There is no status in the amount of time, but regardless of what we think of any particular person ("we place principals before personalities") we can learn from them in how they were able to stay clean. For this addict/alcohlic, I had to do everthing that I heard everyone else do. Looking back the only things that I didn't do were take meetings into instituions and interact with local intergroups. I made up for that with heavy involvement with the fellowship. I can't stress wraping the fellowship around you enough. This is your new family <---shameless plug

-- Edited by DeanC at 09:24, 2008-08-28

mrwinkie · Senior Member

this is interesting. my personals ive been off my DOC for about 18 months, the # 2 DOC that i used to get off the # 1 ive been off for about 6 months. i used several pharm scripts along with the ole standbye ( puff puff pass ) up until 85 days ago today.. so i say 85 hard earned mother f**kin days. thats me.. ive got to agree with nik that some use these numbers as status symbols instead of focusing on the big picture as i see it , thats staying clean today. I also have a ton of respect for dean who seems to follow a very rigid no nonsense type of program. it works and works well for him. I consider dean the military leadership of the room...lol . luv ya dean. im a little more lax. sort of a laid back shoot from the hip type. Its to complicated for me to follow every rule, so i dont expect anyone else to. Am i rambling ? focus anthony, i recently talked to an addict whos been on methadone for 10 years under a drs supervision. hes due to come off it very soon and cant wait. Why ? because he wants to be 1 day clean. to each his own. anthonyg

Nikky · Senior Member

Yup, I'd love to eventually have 40 years clean....if it means being happy, and I now know I can. When I first started listening to these knuckleheads, deciding if i wanted to stay clean, some that had lots of clean time seemed like such assholes that i decided i'd rather be high than hang around them. i felt closer to the newly sober and wanted their company more than the old timers.

i finally have a new high, what i call mind f***ing, contemplating concepts. i read theoretical physicists, theologians, books about the Aboriginies, etc. The more absurd, the better, ha.

Even though I've slipped, however, I can't ignore the learning I got from my clean time. I like to include it. Saying I only have a day sober shouldn't make me less of a leader in recovery than one with 2000 days. I knew one member with many years clean that had luckily failed her suicide attempts many times over those years....should she had considered those suicide attempts as slips, lessening her appearance as a role model on how to stay clean? Might have affected how her listeners considered her wisdom. Again, I've heard criticism of the elders....wife beaters, other-addicted. Perhaps they should not count their clean time when they've actually had a slip the way I define a slip.

Drug replacement therapy....I take an antidepressant, so I'm not qualified to criticize. I can only wish my sister, who died of a heroin overdose, had been on methadone - from knowing all about her, I certainly would have counted her methadone time as clean time by comparison. It's possible there are some addicts that can't chemically function (I can't function without my antidepressant)...many addicts are said to be self-medicating. Could it be as dangerous to tell these methadone members that they're not clean just as it would be to tell a diabetic to get off insulin? Dunno, but I have known WAY, WAY too many suicides of drug addicts. I would have much rather seen them use than blow their brains out. Bottom line is that I think it's a moot point. I'm not getting off my antidepressant, no matter what member tells me they think I'm not clean. I dare not do such to anyone else trying to stay sane and happy, either.

Raman · Guru

an older member here relapsed when he was clean for 17 years.
there were some that ridiclued him nd some felt bad for him.
he was at one time my sponsor too.
yes he was overbearing,,pedantic,,extremely judgemental etc..
my only thought at that time was,,
'oh poor x'
but all said and done would I llike that to happen to me ??
the most negative thing in our fellowship is the
'oh,, I told u so attitude''
do unto others as ye would have em do unto you ..
God bless all the addicts who are in recovery and keep em in recovery..
'''weve never seen an addict who works the NA program relapse'''
my dear God,,I don't want to to relapse ever..
I wantnto be clean and serene till the day I die,,
starting just for today !!!

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

I was told, "If clean doesn't matter to you then you must not have any." I value my clean time simply because like Anthony stated, some of those days were really, really hard to get through without using.

I was also told not to put people with clean time on pedistals, because they're addicts too, not these perfect people that lead perfect lives. We all fall short at times, regardless of clean times.

Now, on topic:

Personally, I've used Saboxone and Methadone to get high on, so anything I've used for a buzz I have a hard time being able to justify or believe someone else to be "clean" while using.

Our fellowship has a bulletin pertaining to DRT and Trusted Service positions (Bulletin #29 - http://www.na.org/bulletins/bull29.htm ). We also have a new IP - NA Groups & Medication - http://www.na.org/servicemat/NA_Groups_and_Medication_Sep07.pdf ).

Our area has several addicts that use DRT and it was a hot topic for awhile. I actually submitted a motion that our area adhere to a policy about the Trusted Service positions, since the bulletin references that...it was struck down, and I lost my enthusiam to try to persue it further, and no one else seemed to care enough to bother.

As for me and my "opinion" - I work a program of complete abstinance. I DON'T view psychiatric medications as using. DRT to me is simple substitution...only when you "replace" using smack for methadone it's not any better than switching from coke to crank, or alcohol for Xanax, same effect, same brain centers affected, same unmanagability, same buzz...different name.

The worst thing to me: Saboxone is meant to be used for short term detox. Period. It was not intended for long term prescription maintenance. It even says that on the Saboxone website, intended for not more than 8 weeks. That's the saddest part: doctors are mis-using these drugs and because we addicts want the easier, softer way we'll believe they know best...BULLSH*T. If you want to know ANYTHING about a prescription, don't talk to the doctor, talk to your pharmacist! The doctors get kick backs from the drug representatives - free golf outings, free office supplies, free samples, even incentive programs for the number of people that get prescribed certain new drugs per month.

::Steps down off Soap Box::

-- Edited by BigV at 12:14, 2008-08-29

Nikky · Senior Member

I have humbly learned something from you all.....we addicts know when we're using, not just living. I do agree that drt can be dirty. my favorite therapist talks of a guy walking in his classroom with a piece of chalk up his nose, saying it's hard to breathe....everyone can see it but he's in total denial. guess this ought to be a tough love situation. i just hate to drive anyone away from here that's truly crying out for love.
i'm about to have surgery, cosmetic, and i'm not going to take any of the pain meds afterwards. i did this after my hernia surgery in 96. i do not want a taste of that buzz. it gets me on the bad wagon.
i'm just curious as hell why many people would want someone on drt to speak, for them to hear of their so-called success....are they successful?

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

I think it's important to not run someone off, period. Everyone deserves the right at a chance of a new way of life. My personal program involves no dope. If I ever (knock on wood it's no time soon, if ever...) have an injury or illness that must require medication that would be risky, I pray I stay within the circle of love, hope, and fellowship...practice the spiritual principles of repsonsibility and accountability and put my recovery first.

I was sick for two months when I quit dope. I didn't go through detox. I went to meetings sweating, trembling, getting up to go to the bathroom to vomit or shit, and hopefully not both at the same time! I'm not superwoman, and I'm not better or worse than anyone that got a detox. But today, I appreciate that withdrawl. I never thought I would pass another solid bowel movement again! But the day I did, the day I stopped throwing up while brushing my teeth, the day I was able to sit through an entire meeting without getting up to go to the bathroom, I remember those days. I remember how much pain I was in, how much I cried, how desperate I was for help.

I pray I NEVER forget those days. Those days keep me clean today.

Nikky · Senior Member

A documentary comes to mind....a kid in Brazil that had a type of brain surgery; they removed a part of his brain they felt would make him no longer use coke. A month afterward, he went back to using. I saw that documentary 15 or more years ago and it still f***s with my mind.

pain and misery have a value. one member said not to use even if your ass falls off. i'm waiting for the day when my ass DOES fall off

just kidding

DeanC · Guru

mrwinkie wrote:

I also have a ton of respect for dean who seems to follow a very rigid no nonsense type of program. it works and works well for him. I consider dean the military leadership of the room...lol . luv ya dean. im a little more lax. sort of a laid back shoot from the hip type. Its to complicated for me to follow every rule, so i dont expect anyone else to. Am i rambling ?

Thanks anthony.
It's funny I don't see myself that way but I can understand your perception. we are more alike than we are different and the longer that you "stick around" the more the program grows on you and becomes "on board". It pretty much has to over time, from all the repetition that we hear in meetings ( a good sort of brain washing idea

). I'm far from a book thumper. Being married for 11 years in a 15 year relationship, raising my now 21 yo son, and having my own business for longer has kept me busier than I would've liked to have been in regards to being involved in the program.

I'm embarassed to tell you that my goal I made for this year was to get to 2 meetings a month (totally not recommending this). And there's been years where I only made a half a dozen that just seemed to fly by with no particular issues. I won't rationalize but I will say that most of my friends and the people that I talk to (including my sponsor) daily are in recovery a long time. So we talk about the tools of the program when we're biotching to each other, about life's chanllenges (which we call "mini-meetings" ). It's these "tools" that I'm trying to share with you that have kept me "between the ditches" for awhile now smile

.

mrwinkie · Senior Member

the longer that you "stick around" the more the program grows on you and becomes "on board".

i sure dont want to stir up any crap here, im respecting everyones opinion. i may be over sensitive here, but my gut it saying this is the elitist type comment that hurts more than helps. god knows i can be as insensitive as the next guy, but this is what separates and divides. it gives an air of " hush child ive been here longer " sort of patronizing.

BigV · Senior Member

mrwinkie wrote:

the longer that you "stick around" the more the program grows on you and becomes "on board".
i sure dont want to stir up any crap here, im respecting everyones opinion. i may be over sensitive here, but my gut it saying this is the elitist type comment that hurts more than helps. god knows i can be as insensitive as the next guy, but this is what separates and divides. it gives an air of " hush child ive been here longer " sort of patronizing.

We just don't want " no child Left Behind " Anthony HEH HEH

It will grow on you as long as you stay involved this place has kept me involved otherwise I wouldn't have been so brainwashed since I don't make many meetings in real life. I needed a good brainwashing sorry to have to even say that but my brain was a pile of crap, bad thoughts bad intentions real sick thinking careless and thoughtless self centered and plain UGLY so I really don't mind that change LOL

For many years I fought the program and I lost, refused to admitt total depeat, it took what it took and now I've been taken( though I still fight) given a reprieve my death sentence has been suspeneded, I am greatful for what recovery I have today it has kept me a live and given me purpose I can't ask for a drop more I certainly don't deserve it but this is what I have and I recognize it as a good thing as do others in my life.

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

Anthony, I'm sure there was no ill intention meant! With that said, I think there can sometimes be a sense of that patronizing at meetings (it can happen anywhere though, look how it is when one starts a new job). I don't think it's ever intended to be hurtful. Looking back I've been on both sides of that coin. I've been the one to think: "Hey! I'm here, I'm clean, I've got important stuff to say!" and then felt shut down by someone thats been around longer, with a snide "Keep Coming Back!" or the "Everyone Gets Their Turn" comment. I've also looked at a newer member and thought, "what do you know?"

The point is, anonymity means (to me) more than just nameless. To me it means, we are all equal. No matter if we have got 1 day clean, 1,000 days, or 100,000 days clean...we all only have TODAY. People with 10 years clean can get high just as easily as someone with 10 days clean.

The best I can do is keep an open mind. I've been in meetings before with 20 some people and been the one with the "most" clean time and thought, "Oh Christ, what am I going to do? There's no one here that can help me." Realizing I was closing my mind to a messenger of my H.P. I opened my ears and listened, and heard wonderful things.

The biggest thing I have to always remember is my disease wants me dead, high, or miserable. When I let someone else's comments/actions/attitudes affect my attitude, thinking, and feelings than I'm giving my disease an "in." My disease wants me to feel "apart from" instead of a "part of." If it can get me angry at someone enough to stop going to that particular meeting, or so upset that I won't listen to what they say, I'm just surrendering to my disease and giving it free roam. I try my best to NOT do that since my disease is way powerful enough without me giving it more to work with!

Love & Hugs!!

-- Edited by ItsAllGolden at 13:52, 2008-08-29

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

Oh yeah, I heard someone say once: As bad as my thinking is, I could use a good brain "washing"! LOL...I wish it was that easy, take the 'ole brain out and give it a good scrub and be done!

DeanC · Guru

mrwinkie wrote:

the longer that you "stick around" the more the program grows on you and becomes "on board".
i sure dont want to stir up any crap here, im respecting everyones opinion. i may be over sensitive here, but my gut it saying this is the elitist type comment that hurts more than helps. god knows i can be as insensitive as the next guy, but this is what separates and divides. it gives an air of " hush child ive been here longer " sort of patronizing.

ok mr. winkie, you've taken my comment totally out of context. It was part of an explanation to your comments about my program. Go back and read the rest because you didn't "get it" lol. What I was trying to say is that I too could take or leave a lot of the rhetoric in these programs at one time, hell I hated the one liners and thought the rooms were full of stupid mocking birds. I let that push me out of the rooms repeatedly for 2 years till I was beat up and wore down enough to surrender. I see that you still have some fight left in you, well Good for you! lol Hopefully it'll transmit into more wood chopping and water carrying. Btw the 3 fireplaces in mountain home I'm building are gas

.

As far as the elitest remark, it would take a twisted ego to want to be the king on this ant hill. weirdface

-- Edited by DeanC at 18:32, 2008-08-29

-- Edited by DeanC at 18:46, 2008-08-29

mrwinkie · Senior Member

the more i re-read it the more condescending it gets. oh well , hey i fully accept that i just don't " get it " its just like church and the faith issue.. if you have any questions at all then you " just don't get it " because if your faith was strong you wouldn't have any questions. . ok ok. i just don't get it. ill refrain from any further comments.

-- Edited by mrwinkie at 21:03, 2008-08-29

Nikky · Senior Member

Man, ya gotta love the Keystone Kops. At least we're all clean. That's all that really, really matters

DeanC · Guru

mrwinkie wrote:

the more i re-read it the more condescending it gets. oh well , hey i fully accept that i just don't " get it " its just like church and the faith issue.. if you have any questions at all then you " just don't get it " because if your faith was strong you wouldn't have any questions. . ok ok. i just don't get it. ill refrain from any further comments.

-- Edited by mrwinkie at 21:03, 2008-08-29

Mr. W, I figured it out. You thought that when I wrote "the longer that YOU stick around" that I meant Mr. winkie. I was not, it was really referring to me and everyone else. I should have written "the longer a person sticks around...".

Now does that clear it up? I'll be more careful next time

mrwinkie · Senior Member

-- Edited by mrwinkie at 07:56, 2008-08-30

Nikky · Senior Member

in the arms of the angel, fly away from here.....

in 200 billion years, all paths will end in perfection. i hope to see my late sister and brother there. i miss them

you are a part of me. as long as there is one person in prison, i am not free

dan h · Senior Member

WOW! I said I wanted to stimulate discussion and you guys gave it to me! Thanks, everyone, for all the posts and I appreciate everyone's comments. I was talking to one of my predecessors here in Indianapolis who pointed me to this from the world website which Goldie has already mentioned:

The following is an excerpt from the World Service Board of Trustees Bulletin #29. It reads, in part:

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous. It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.

Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

Ok, This is me typing again now, guys. You can read the entire Bulletin at www.na.org The most important point this bulletin makes, I believe, is that any drug used as addiction treatment or drug replacement is substituting one for another. Many addicts have taken methadone and other drugs to treat the symptoms of withdrawals with great success, but ours is a program of abstinence. "We begin to treat our addiction by not using." (Who is an addict?) This has nothing to do with antidepressants, tranquilizers, or any other drug prescribed by a physician for anything OTHER than addiction treatment. I think sometimes members are confused by this an feel they are being told they aren't clean, that is not my intent or my business!
Thanks again, everyone for your comments.

-- Edited by dan h at 00:05, 2008-08-31

-- Edited by dan h at 00:24, 2008-08-31

-- Edited by dan h at 02:54, 2008-08-31

dan h · Senior Member

One last thing, I've heard it said that clean time is a Paradox of Recovery...it means both Everything and absolutely Nothing at all, at the same time. Guy who told me this celebrated 28 years this year. Go figure. Anyway, personally, I'm more interested in the quality of a members recovery than the quantity of their clean time. Some of us are sicker than others and we recover at different rates. To me, Recovery = Spiritual growth. Spiritually mature members are quick to use certain softer, gentler principles such as Compassion, Tolerance, Patience, Understanding, Forgiveness and Love, and above all, Humility. To me, these are sure signs of a member who is working a strong program and one who has what I want. Just my two cents. Dan

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

dan h wrote:

a Paradox of Recovery...it means both Everything and absolutely Nothing at all, at the same time.

I'm starting to get that. I've come to a point where I know the feeling of "the longer I'm here, the less I know"...I feel like I know next to nothing today. Not sure if that's good or bad, just is I guess.

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