Is this a relapse?

bill2983 · Member

Is this a relapse?

mikah · Senior Member

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...yah,, nicotine, caffeine,,, even sugar for that matter seem to hang in some sort of grey area. confuse

....personally, I feel that each addict gets to choose how they classify these for themselves.

keep coming back! wink

Dave R · Guru

We keep our own clean time. We have to be honest with ourselves. Nicotine can produce a little buzz, as can sugar and caffeine. I would not call this using. otherwise about 95% of our fellowship would need to pick up a white chip.

-- Edited by Dave R on Friday 8th of July 2016 06:30:38 AM

mikah · Senior Member

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....it's funny, I remembered my first NA meeting ~27 years ago back when they smoked -in- the rooms.

. ....I went there to quit smoking! ...surely nicotine is a narcotic, no!? confuse

bill2983 · Member

"Nicotine can produce a little buzz, as can sugar and caffeine. I would call this using." So you think it was using? Confused. Thank you all for your responses.

bill2983 · Member

"...yah,, nicotine, caffeine,,, even sugar for that matter seem to hang in some sort of grey area. confuse

....personally, I feel that each addict gets to choose how they classify these for themselves." Yeah, caffeine definitely changes the way I feel. Nicotine it was definitely euphoric though, which made me uncomfortable, but also produced the craving. I agree with you that the general thought seems to be the individual can choose with these drugs, but why is that, since in our literature we state "all mind and mood altering substances"? I'm sorry for rambling. I've just been wrestling with this for a while.

mikah · Senior Member

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why is that? ...because the #'s in the rooms would be reduced to tumbleweeds? Personally, I think #'s would continue, people would adjust, and perhaps even realize the gravity of these addictions.

.. as much as I'm a smoker,, Nicotine IS a narcotic.

...maybe have a chat about it at your next meeting........ ..during smoke'n coffee break! biggrin

bill2983 · Member

Ha. I know it probably seems minor. But it's also not really accurate to say people using nicotine and caffeine aren't using mood and mind altering drugs, so that premise of being clean from all drugs is actually untrue, and it's most accurate to say they are abstaining from some drugs, and so am I (I haven't used any of what people think of as drugs of abuse including alcohol for over 9 years). I guess I feel it's not enough to say that because it's common means its ok, and I say that as someone who drinks caffeine daily (first thing in the morning, like a fiend), and I know I used nicotine to feel good and for no other reason. It's confusing.

mikah · Senior Member

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.....I'd not let it confuse you, just be clear for yourself, don't bother with outside inventories!

..it's all about going to a meeting for the -solution-, rather than focusing on the contradictions.

....likely why this one's not been addressed.

MickeyMouth · Newbie

Imo it would vary from person to person. I think you have to be really honest with yourself and ask yourself "Am I ABUSING nicotine?" Or "Am I taking part in addictive behaviors?"(as you classify them) Everyone is different I'm a smoker. I get a buzz from my first morning cigarette and not from any others after that. I do recognize that nicotine is a DRUG and has psychological and physiological effects...however my life is not revolving around cigarettes. I smoke maybe 5 a day and I only do it when I remember/think of it. I rarely get a craving. It's up to you my friend. How do you feel about using nicotine? Are you in control? Is it affecting other areas of your life? Etc... And you may answer all these questions as if it wasnt a bad thing...but if in your gut you feel triggered by using chewing tobacco..I'd say stay away. Best,

Davethewave · Guru

No !!!!!!

Mike M · Guru

Davethewave wrote:
No !!!!!!

+1 KISS

Dave R · Guru

It was a typo. I would not call it using.

bill2983 · Member

Why is it not a relapse? I used a drug, it produced euphoria, and craving, and had no medical purpose. At this point I've kind of accepted it was a relapse, and nicotine is drug usage, albeit socially sanctioned drug usage in NA.

Dave R · Guru

If you want to call it a relapse, go ahead. We keep our own clean time.

bill2983 · Member

Is that true, though? I remember in Wisconsin a guy admitted to drinking beer so they felt it was wrong to give him a key tag for a year. And people don't generally think its ok to smoke pot, and call themselves clean. Nor would anyone else. Just trying to find the logic.

Davethewave · Guru

Now you are crossing what we think, what you think, and with what a group thinks with what 'is'.

Nowhere any any NA lit will you find tobacco called out as a drug, nor caffeine.

bill2983 · Member

Right. It's not in NA literature. That's why NA is wrong to suggest people are not using mind, and mood altering drugs. Would you really suggest that nicotine is not a mind/mood altering drug?

Mike M · Guru

As has been stated whether or not you wish to consider the use of Nicotine as a relapse is up to you.

The issue has been discussed for decades at all levels of NA and I think the following summarizes NA's official stance nicely.

Narcotics Anonymous encourages its members to observe complete abstinence from all drugs, including alcohol, even substances other than the individual's drug of choice, though NA's only stated membership requirement is "a desire to stop using" drugs. It has been the NA members' experience that complete and continuous abstinence provides the best foundation for recovery and personal growth. However, Narcotics Anonymous takes no absolute stand as a society on the use of caffeine, nicotine, or sugar. Similarly, the use of prescribed medication for the treatment of specific medical or psychiatric conditions is neither encouraged nor prohibited by NA. While recognizing numerous questions in these areas, Narcotics Anonymous feels that they are matters of personal decision and encourages its members to consult their own experience, the experience of other members, and qualified health professionals in making up their minds about these subjects.

I can't imagine where NA (or I) would be today if when I came to NA 30+ years ago a hope to die dope fiend I'd been required to also give up smoking and caffeine and sugar and whatever else anyone deemed as addictive to belong.

Davethewave · Guru

bill2983 wrote:
Right. It's not in NA literature. That's why NA is wrong to suggest people are not using mind, and mood altering drugs. Would you really suggest that nicotine is not a mind/mood altering drug?

Yes that's exactly what I said. And you asked for our opinions.....Tobacco and caffeine have been around for centuries and if NA thought they should be classified as drugs they would have said so a long time ago. If you do, fine that's your decision. I've made mine!

Mike M · Guru

bill2983 wrote:
Right. It's not in NA literature. That's why NA is wrong to suggest people are not using mind, and mood altering drugs. Would you really suggest that nicotine is not a mind/mood altering drug?

NA is wrong? NA, or more accurately the Group Conscience of NA is wrong? You are entitled to your opinion. Decades ago I learned that for me the Group Conscience of NA was far better at determining a path for how I could Recover from Active Addiction than I could ever on my own. Fact is I never could remain Clean on my own, I tried many times many ways for many years always returning to Active Addiction until following the NA Way as expressed by the NA Group Conscience.

Clean by the Grace of my Higher Power whom I choose to call God through the Power and Wisdom of NA and it's Group Conscience since Nov 27, 1980.

bill2983 · Member

That anyone would actually deny that nicotine is a mind/mood altering drug just goes to show that denial can still run deep after many years. Can anyone mount an actual argument that nicotine is not a drug? Would anyone claim its not mind and mood altering? Go ahead if you believe that. If you don't believe that than you must acknowledge that the NA definition of members as clean from all mood and mind altering drugs is false. It's crazy how addicted people are to these substances. It's the same patterns of denial and rationalization creeping up, but sanctioned by the community. Let's evolve.

bill2983 · Member

Dave: What does a drug being around for centuries have to do with whether or not it is a drug? Think about it: nicotine produces euphoria, craving, and withdrawal. It is both physically and psychologically addicting. It kills millions every year. How is that not a drug and how is that not drug addiction? Seriously curious how you could logic your way out of seeing that.

Mike M · Guru

bill2983 · Member

All memes aside since people are actually asserting nicotine is not a drug (an insane claim that shows that denial still runs deep) the discussion is very much alive. Are you a smoker?

-- Edited by bill2983 on Tuesday 12th of July 2016 01:40:29 AM

mikah · Senior Member

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...what are you 'on' Bill? ...seems you've got a lot more going on than asking our opinions.

The overall group conscious has been shared here, as well as a few individual opinions.

... times like this,, I'm always happy to remember the Serenity prayer. I can change nothing but myself., and I certainly don't feel a need to change NA or any other group that's saved so many lives.

bill2983 · Member

Mikah: Why the defensiveness? Are you a smoker? Im just looking for the truth. Suggesting that nicotine is not a drug is not an opinion. It's denial.

Davethewave · Guru

Just stop it, you aren't looking for "the truth" you want to start a fight. We've given you our opinion, and that's not good enough for you. To mock or belittle us is actually amusing. We guess you don't know nor care about the serenity prayer!!!

Oh I get you are confused!! You want Nicotine Anonymous . Here you go

nicotine-anonymous.org/find-a-meeting.html

mikah · Senior Member

bill2983 wrote:
Mikah: Why the defensiveness? Are you a smoker? Im just looking for the truth. Suggesting that nicotine is not a drug is not an opinion. It's denial.

...strange.

If you read the comments you asked for you'll see the answers to what you ask me now.

Yes I am a smoker. Yes, I consider nicotine as a narcotic, and in fact my first time in the rooms ~25 years ago was to quit smoking,,,but they smoked in the rooms. Yes, the choice has been left open in these matters for some very good reasons,,, and I respect these reasons.

It's pretty clear by now that this thread is not so much an inquiry as a presentation of your personal agenda, a mind made up., a plan to play, whatever. <;-/

It's also already been stated, and how grateful I am that I was accepted into the rooms for my desire to stop the use of drugs, rather than the need to already have achieved such.

For me, I accept that the only thing I can change is myself. One day, one step at a time. Today, I choose to step away from this thilly dialogue.

I hope you find what you're looking for. I really do!

bill2983 · Member

It was an honest inquiry in the beginning. My initial story is totally authentic, and I did not come for a fight but for trying to make sense of something that bothered me that I couldn't share about in a meeting as is evident by the response I've gotten here. Since first posting, and thinking about it, I've accepted my use of nicotine was a relapse, which sucks, perhaps some of the anger you are reading: I took a drug for no medical reason, it produced intoxication, and craving, I repeated the process many times. I can't pick some drugs. I can't have a couple of beers. I can't take just a hit of weed because pot never really messed with my life. Also, what you are reading is a response to defensiveness, and hypocrisy. Since you have other members who use nicotine there is going to be collusion as addicts defend their still active addiction to a drug, and that defensiveness about their addiction gets pushed out onto others. How many times when confronted with our drug use did it become about the other, they just had a problem with our using, the problem wasn't our using. This thread has demonstrated that pattern is still going on in many who've responded. I apologize for any problems I may have caused. I will be leaving this thread now.

Davethewave · Guru

bill2983 wrote:
..... Since you have other members who use nicotine there is going to be collusion as addicts defend their still active addiction to a drug, and that defensiveness about their addiction gets pushed out onto others.....

What sort of passive aggressive answer is that? Evidently you didn't even read our responses!!

BigV · Senior Member

I came to NA for one reason and that was to stop my addiction to cocaine I am also addicted to alcohol I did not come here to quit smoking to drinking coffee even though they are both addictions I have they are not YET as problematic as cocaine and alcohol were.

Yes they are both drugs nicotine and caffeine.

So today I am clean and sober 9 years not from all drugs but from cocaine and alcohol that was my hope, I have still work to do with other substances and when I'm ready or forced to I will quit them also biggrin

Bill you decide yourself if you've relapsed, if your intent is that this program work with your addiction to nicotine and you used then well thats for you to decide if its a relapse, its damn sure a tough drug to stop no doubttttt about it, i wont argue with you its your decision to make between you yourself and God or your sponsor or whomever whatever.

-- Edited by BigV on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:44:15 AM

-- Edited by BigV on Sunday 17th of July 2016 12:44:53 AM

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