God

Thanks guys.

It doesnt matter what I call him, does it?

"I may choose to call God God and leave it at that.
Tmay be named or not..
personal... impersonal....
Absolute.....dual."

As long as i understand his purpose and the concept?

 

"Good Ordely Direction"

Im gonna stick this in my breast pocket. Try to glue this connotation to "god" instead of icky other concepts.

-- Edited by verwirrt on Friday 15th of June 2012 02:36:14 PM

and verwirrt,,,  your "honeybuns" thing got me laughing real well....hahaha,, thanks for that humour.

In fact,, theres a whole lot of affection I have for God,,,

In real tense times, Ive actually heard myself say things like "dear God", "my friend" etc. though I didnt go as far as "old chap", "pal" and such  like,,,,, hahahahaha !

And hey, yes,,,, thanks for sharing so honestly !

Its an insspiration !

Pick your own God of your understanding works.

I call my HP "God" and that works fine for me.
But if you prefer a name, it is my understanding that God has a name.
The muslims call Him "Allah"
The bible calls Him "Jehova"
My wife calls him Harry, and I know another guy calls Him Gus for Guy Upstairs.
I'm not sure that He minds if you get familiar.

Ok folks,, heres my ramble, so ladies and gentlemen, please lend me your attentions....heheh,, thanks...

 

Introduction

I want to share an "academic viewpoint". I thought this thread would stay anonymous, but because specific religions are being mentioned, it would be necessary to share a bit from another major religion of the world, Hindusim.  Westerners hardly know a thing or two about Hinduism,  though Im not generalizing that in context of the NA Fellowship and MIP in particular. Being a born again addict  Hindu myself, this seems like a great opportunity to clear the air of misconceptions and misunderstandings. Id like to share phenomena Ive experienced and put into words of the language, without any prejudice, pre-conceived notions, or looking at things from the lens of religious dogma.

 

The Hindu Conceptual Framework:

Early Hindu Texts describe God as the Universal Holy Spirit, The Highest God, The Universal Soul. Many Hindus also take a Goddess as a Personal Deity. Then later, God assumed many forms on Mother earth,  called "Avatars" or the different forms of Manifest Divinity.

The Hindu is faced with a myraid of choices when it comes to selection/choice of a Personal Deity. The Hindu religion is pantheistic. Though the base is Absolute, the various manifestations and Avatars are different; one God but many forms. While other religions force followers to adhere only to the God-personality prescribed by that religion, Hinduism is the only faith that actually practices the concept of God as you understand. God in Hinduism has over a long period of time gained a distinct difference inasmuch as followers are encouraged to develop relationships with their own personal deities. The various "Avatars" of God are all possibilities. Moreover, Hindus also practice concepts such as Family deity and Personal God.

 

A brief comparison of orientations; theoretical underpinnings.

History says various religions were born in the Middle East; Judaism, Christianity and Islam and the source of their Text is the Bible/Old Hebrew Texts/Old Testament. These religions then developed their own Holy Books. The Torah/Talmud, The Bible/New Testament and the Holy Koran-Sharia are the Guiding Forces for Judaism, Christianity and Islam respectively.

In somewhat the same token, India is the birthplace of many major religions of the world. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism have a common source; all these religions were born out of reaction and protest about the way things were with Hinduism, but they carried many of those core concepts into their newly founded religions. Though the  non-Hindus may deny it, most of their Holy Texts are a derivative of the Hindu religion; but they redefined it, refined it and created a separate faith. They use many of the Tenets in the Original Hindu Conceptual Framework. But the converts, early and till recently in history, to Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism came from Hindus and they had to believe in the same God or Path as experienced by their founder.

The  concept of "God as we understood" was been totally excluded.This perhaps was so that they could be seperate and distinct in their own right.

While all other religions of the world prescribe God as experienced by their founders, Hinduism is based on the underpinning that God is Absolute and One though with many manifest forms. And the Hindu is allowed to have personal choice. But the choice must result in well being.

In the same way in NA, the right to a God of our understanding is total and without any catches. But if it isnt practical it isnt Spiritual, therefore we in NA are Guided to find a Loving and Caring Power Greater than ourselves, our egos and our dis-ease of addiction.

However, this is not to say that non-Hindus are not comfortable in their faiths. But the moot point is whether religion we were born or belong in, is it a faith we follow of our own liking and choice or are we forced to believe ?

And that sums up my understanding on religious orientations.

In comparison with the 12 Step Traditions

Now after having said all of that, lets take a comparative look at the 12 Step Traditions. 

1. All 12 Step Fellowships have a common source, the 12 Steps as originally published by AA.  In NA we say "adapted from 12 Steps of AA". Though AA was the "original" or "First Fellowship" , needs of the people for being in social-groups that would offer identification without judgement and condemnation gave birth to many other Fellowships. At last count in 2011, it estimated that there are about 50 different ones and still growing.

2. Most Fellowships have  founders/co-founders and imagine what would happen if as in religion, God as experienced by these first members were to be imposed on later  members. The open-mindedness and Eternal Wisdom of our founding fathers/mothers have ensured the survival of our Fellowships.

In NA, we are actually promised, in our Vision Statement that an addict, any addict can find recovery within his/her own language and culture. Indeed one fine day that may well include "religion" too.

3. In this very Forum, Im amazed at the tolerance and acceptance of MIP's like Mike.F, Angell, Mike.M, Don, Colin, Dave, Dave, Vin etc. who have a religion/ beliefs/convictions too but dont impose. The last thing an addict wants is a self-righteous imposing of morals....

Conclusions

The important thing for me, a recovering addict is to remember that it is "easy to float out on a cloud of religious zeal" (Step 11). 

I need to be Spiritual to stay Clean and Serene.

Therefore, Honesty, Open mindedness and Willingness and Humility are the underpinnings of my Faith !

 

 

 

 

Appendices:

1= A conservative list of 12 Step fellowships. (Wikipedia, 2012)

AA - Alcoholics Anonymous

ACA - Adult Children of Alcoholics

Al-Anon/Alateen, for friends and family members of alcoholics

CA - Cocaine Anonymous

CLA - Clutterers Anonymous

CMA - Crystal Meth Anonymous

Co-Anon, for friends and family of addicts

CoDA - Co-Dependents Anonymous, for people working to end patterns of dysfunctional relationships and develop functional and healthy relationships

COSA - formerly Codependents of Sex Addicts

COSLAA - CoSex and Love Addicts Anonymous

DA - Debtors Anonymous

EA - Emotions Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness

EHA - Emotional Health Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness

FA - Families Anonymous, for relatives and friends of addicts

FA - Food Addicts in Recovery Anonymous

FAA - Food Addicts Anonymous

GA - Gamblers Anonymous

Gam-Anon/Gam-A-Teen, for friends and family members of problem gamblers

HA - Heroin Anonymous

MA - Marijuana Anonymous

NA - Narcotics Anonymous

NAIL - Neurotics Anonymous, for recovery from mental and emotional illness

Nar-Anon, for friends and family members of addicts

NicA - Nicotine Anonymous

OA - Overeaters Anonymous

OLGA - Online Gamers Anonymous

PA - Pills Anonymous, for recovery from presciption pill addiction.

SA - Sexaholics Anonymous

SA - Smokers Anonymous

SAA - Sex Addicts Anonymous

SCA - Sexual Compulsives Anonymous

SIA - Survivors of Incest Anonymous

SLAA - Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous

WA - Workaholics Anonymous

 

2: Comparative Studies. (Wikipedia, 2012)

Comparative religion is that branch of the study of religions concerned with the systematic comparison of the doctrines and practices of the worlds religions. There are many benefits to such a course of enquiry but in general the comparative study of religion yields a deeper understanding of the fundamental philosophical concerns of religion such as ethics, metaphysics and the nature and form of salvation. A person who has undertaken such a course of study has a much richer and more sophisticated understanding of human beliefs and practices regarding the sacred, numinous, spiritual and divine.[1]

In the field of comparative religion, the main world religions are generally classified as Abrahamic, Indian or Taoic. Areas of study also include creation myths and Humanism.     

3. Comparisions Tabulated (jewsforjesus.org, 2012     

Meaning of birth	Theravada We are reborn from a previous life until we reach nirvana (extinction of all desire and release from suffering). The cycle of death and rebirth is called samsara.	Mahayana We are reborn from a previous life until we reach nirvana (extinction of all desire and release from suffering). The cycle of death and rebirth is called samsara.	Hindu We are reborn from a previous life until we realize our "oneness" with Brahman. The cycle of death and rebirth is called samsara.	Judaic We are made in the image of God and come into the world with the capacity to opt for good or evil.	Gospel We are made in God's image but come into the world inclined to sin because of the sin of Adam. Redemption is needed.
Way to Truth	Follow the teachings of Buddha, e.g., the Four Truths and the Eightfold Path. The written Scripture, the Tripitaka ("three baskets"), includes the teachings of Buddha.	Through the study of scriptural texts running to more than five thousand volumes.	Spiritual disciplines like yoga enable one to achieve the enlightenment and truth needed. Suffering and samsara result from ignorance of self-truth. Vedas are scriptures that hold final authority.	Bible (Hebrew Scriptures). Oral Law provides the authoritative interpretation for knowing how to live. Truth is seen in deeds more than in creed, although a cardinal tenet of belief is the Unity of God.	Bible (Old and New Testaments) as divinely revealed. It is final arbiter, although various creeds give expression to its teaching. Y'shua is the ultimate embodiment of truth.
Goal of spirituality	Deliverance from samsara through reaching nirvana.	Deliverance from samsara through reaching nirvana is not to be sought for the individual alone.	Deliverance from cycle of death and rebirth and realizing "oneness" with Brahman.	To know God. To serve God and others.	To know God. To serve God and others.
Way to spirituality	Practice of some disciplines leads to nirvana. No personal God. One can achieve deliverance from samsara and become a Buddhist saint. But this deliverance is only for the few who can attain it.	Seeking personal deliverance and assisting in others' salvation. Ideal follower is a bodhisattva, one who forsakes his own salvation to aid others. Salvation is not merited, open to all.	Practice of spiritual disciplines such as yoga delivers one from the cycle of death and rebirth by helping one to realize his or her "oneness" with Brahman. Many incarnations and deities may be worshipped.	Observance of mitzvot, study of Torah and other holy books leads to blessing in life. Prayer, repentance, and the need to perform the mitzvot with the proper intention or kavannah are also important.	Faith in Y'shua as God's requisite for atonement and salvation. Continued spiritual growth and blessing come through living a life of service and love.
Meaning of death	Leads to rebirth from which we can be delivered by reaching nirvana. Rebirth is not by chance but is based on the universal law of cause and effect (karma).	Differs from Theravada Buddhism in accepting the existence of the individual soul, in which case rebirth is also called transmigration.	Leads to rebirth of the soul, or transmigration, from which we can be delivered by realizing our "oneness" with Brahman or ultimate reality.	Cessation of bodily life and entrance into the "world to come" or some other place.	Cessation of bodily life and entrance into either heaven or hell.
Afterlife	Until nirvana is reached, after life is rebirth. Nirvana itself is neither continued existence of the soul nor a nnihilation.	On the way to nirvana, the individual soul may pass through a variety of heavens and hells.	Afterlife is rebirth until deliverance is achieved. Then one merges into Brahman, the All.	Many beliefs, including bodily resurrection. Few teach of a heaven and hell. Generally, Torah obedience leads to life in the world to come.	Bodily resurrection after death and judgment. Heaven and hell are eternal destinies to which all people go based on choices made in this life.

 

4=Summary (vaughnspapers, 2012)

Summary of Major Religions Chart (or, where were you born?)
Religion Millions of Adherents	One God - The Monotheistic Religions (Also called the "bloody" religions)				Many Gods	No God
	Judaism 13	Christianity 1,955	Islam 1,126		Hinduism 793	Buddhism 325
Origination	Egypt - Israel	Israel - Rome	Arabia		India	India
When	586 B.C.	32 A.D.	622 A.D.		1500 B.C.	500 B.C.
Prophets	Adam, Noah, Abraham				No prophets
Adherent	Jew	Christian	Moslem		Hindu	Buddhist
Founder	Abraham/ Moses	Jesus	Mohammed		Many	Siddhartha Gotama
God	Yahweh, Elohim	Christ, Jehovah	Allah		Many: Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva	none
Devil	No (adversary)	Devil, Satan	Satan		Iblis, Shaitan	Mara
This Life's Purpose	Now, plus test	Just a test	Just a test		One-of-many	This is it!
Afterlife	Eden, Gehenna	Heaven-Hell	Heaven-Hell		Reincarnation	Nirvana
Redemption	Prayer, Study	Confession Repentance	Faith, Works Pray 5 times/ day		Karma Eliminate passions	Enlightenment Eliminate passions
Place of Worship	Synagogue	Church	Mosque		Temple	Temple
Holy Book	Tanakh (Torah) Talmud	Bible	Quran plus Sunna (sayings)		Bhagavad Gita	Tipitaka
Seeks Converts?	No	Yes	Yes		No	No
Main Sects (worldwide)	8% Orthodox 34% Conservative 23% Reformed 35% Secular (est.)	52% Catholic 17% Protestant 19% Orthodox  2% Anglican	83% Sunni 16% Shiite		70% Vaishnaites 25% Shiavites   2% neo-Hindu	56% Mahayana 38% Hinayana   6% Tantrayana
Characteristics	Judaism	Christianity	Islam		Hinduism	. Buddhism
Circumcision	Required Abraham introduced	Traditional	Traditional		No	No
Capitol Punishment	Murder	Murder	Murder, Adultery		No	No
Kill for God	Yes	Yes	Yes		No	No
Race Equality	Chosen by God	Equal	Equal		4 Castes	Equal
Original Sin	No	Yes - Baptism	No		"saddled with past"	No
Alcohol	OK	No - Yes	No		No	No
Women's Status	Far Improved	Not Bad	Supressed		Poor	Ambivalent
168 - 768	115	115	115	15	115	115
Below is the same religion comparison chart , but in a graphic format (.GIF)

Main Religion Books Comparison
Religion	Sacred Book Name	Rough Equivalence
Judaism Judaism Judaism	Torah Hebrew Tanakh Talmud	Pentateuch - 5 books by Moses Old Testament Books - 39 Talmud Tractates - 63
Catholic Protestant	Rheims Bible King James Bible	Books (46 + 27) Books (39 + 27)
Islam Hinduism Buddhism	Qur'an (Koran) Bhagavad Gita Tipitaka	Koran Suras - 114 Bhagavad Gita Chapters - 18 Canonization
	Books of the Bible Summary - The books and chapters of the Jewish Bible, the Catholic Bible, and the Protestant Bible compared.

 

 

References

wikipedia (2012), last viewed on 16/06/2012 at                                 www. wikipedia.com/comparative religion

yahoo answers (2012), last viewed on 16/06/2012 at www.yahooanswers.com/hindusim,sikhism,jainism,buddhism.

jewsforjesus.org (2012), last viewed on 16/06/2012 at  http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/10_4/chart

vaughnspapers (2012), last viewed on 16/06/2012 at http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/religion/religions-summary.htm

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/religion/religions-summary.htm

-- Edited by Raman on Sunday 17th of June 2012 02:26:23 PM

People (the general messes) are "unable" (too lazy to learn how) to self govern. Coexist is an ideal way of living, but I'll never see it happen in my lifetime (and I'm gonna bet that my kids wouldn't either)

but Im never discouraged or disillusioned. NA has people from many faiths and we live live in harmony.
The lessons and sentiments learned in this "micro-sphere" can then be transferred onto society at large.

In MIP there are many different addicts with different socio-religious backgrounds .
Here in India that is more pronounced as we live in a multi religious society here.

So I an addict, can learn to live and let live,, thats the Amazing Grace that Ive been heaped with in abundance !
We co-exist in peace and harmony, inspite of the differences !

hahaha,,, ok.

But I differ when you say the US welcomes people,,,,, no they dont,, in fact outright rejecting and hostile, especially those that are not their military allies.
They discriminate against us from the Third World by declaring " We believe you are trying to emigrate to our country so we will not give you a visa.
But if you prove us wrong, we will". That is very intimidating and wrong.........
And Ive been a victim too of that policy towards poor countries.

My story is like this;
Basically when I began recovery, there was no NA here, only AA. I did a Program called the Loner Group; the Loner staying clean in isolation. We started the first NA meeting here and that went on for about 6 months. Then I went back to the Loner roup Program. I also attended AA, served and stayed in that fellowship for about 5 years. In the meanwhile other druggies came and stayed but we noticed addicts were going out back and using cause they did not identify with the alcoholic in AA. In the course of service, few addicts that stayed clean inspite of reality, started the first NA group here.
Time went by, NA grew. From a loner I went into NA service as the Fellowship grew here.
BUt there was always that desire to experience what NA was all about in the land of it's birth, US. That wish stayed in a corner of my mind and life went on, I was staying clean and serene and being a responsible and productive member of the city of Bangalore.

Then in 2003, we were informed that NA was nearing the 50 years anniversary and that there would be a World Convention in that year. So I saved money and made plans to be there. So I sent a mail to friends at World Service office and they gave me a letter of invitation. One part of that letter clearly stated that "Raman attending this Convention would be a validation of our existence as a Worldwide Fellowship" and this letter, signed by the chairman of WSO encouraged the US government to grant me a visa to attend.


And to think that the US denied me a visa inspite of that. All I wanted to do was attend the 50th World Convention and return home to my family, my property and my profession and friends.
You know, it would have been a pilgrimage,,, and being at the 50th anniversary of NA would have been a dream come true. Id have had a lifetime memory...
But the motherfukker (sorry to abuse) at the US embassy said no.

So where is this social justice that the US talks of ?????
Imagine an addict from a Third World country (India) being in the Convention, that too the 50th anniversary of NA, after being a faithful for 15 years (then in 2003)...
It would have been a realization of lifetime,,,,, like Id said a pilgrimage.

I was denied that, no reasons were given.......I missed a lifetime experience !!

Acceptance is hard work,,, sometimes, like this time !!!

i mean look,,, it sill rankles, though this happened many years ago....

It would be right for the US to deny a visa to a third world person pretending to go on a holiday visa and then stay back forever...
It is justified.

But there I was, with a dependent child and mother, a good bank balance, immovable property and a profession to return to.
And there was a letter from WSO signed by Anthony Edmondson, director and explaining clearly the nature and significance of my visit and participation.
I had a stack of supporting documents, and was well dressed, well spoken and also had a letter confirming my service volunteer status.

But still that bad mutha at the visa window denied me the visa,,, I hate that bastard ( Im glad I spelt THAT out !) for denying me an experience of a lifetime !

So,,,,,pray,,, where's the social justice ???

"the right to a God of your understanding is total and without any catches" Basic Text....

Ps. I settled on calling it "universe" because i attach a unification connotation to it.