While belief in GOD is definitely not a requirement for NA Membership or in order to find Recovery, Surrender to a Power Greater than Oneself most definitely is. That said I thank the God of my understanding when I found NA said God didn't have to be the God of my youth! I'd had it up to here with Dogmatic Religions and today believe there is a huge difference and gap between Spirituality and Religious Dogma.
Should the word God be struck/replaced in NA Literature? Not a new question by any means. It has been discussed and debated for decades from the Individual and Group Level down to the World Level. Personally I believe if it works don't fix it! And indeed NA has worked and continues to work for countless addicts in finding a better way of life.
What about the newcomer? Are they being scared away by the word God! Try Good Orderly Direction. Whatever. I don't believe looking for an easier softer way is the way to lasting Recovery. Old belief systems got us here, we must find new ones that work. And the Steps as written have indeed proven a successful path. If someone is unwilling to surrender their will in the face of overwhelming evidence manifest in the countless lives of Clean Recovering Addicts it is their problem not NA's.
Surrender is a bitch. Surrender is also the key and foundation of lasting Recovery. I'm evidence self will run riot doesn't work.
-- Edited by Mike M on Thursday 17th of May 2012 05:28:04 PM
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Work the Steps or Die MF. (My Friend :) Clean One Day At a Time by The Grace of God through The Power of NA
Im unsure of how to say this but Id like to open a discourse on the higher power concept. The spiritual journey that NA has afforded me is the best gift I have received from my twenty years in the program. That said, I am an atheist. Twenty years of recovery has taught me acceptance when the topic is God, or when people find it necessary to qualify their higher power at every opportunity such as: my higher power whom I chose to call Jesus Christ.
I truly do not have a problem with this on a personal level. If this is what keeps you clean, then have at it. I do worry about the newcomer though. Belief in a god is not a requirement for NA membership, nor is it necessary to stay clean. While most would be quick to admit this, their rhetoric belies this. I have talked to many newcomers who have had a troubled relationship with religion along their path and who have become frightened by the overt discussions of god. Most of those who have stayed have reconciled their relationship with the god of their understanding and have gone back to the church or to religion and I am happy for them.
What though of the others? I know we say that you can choose a god of your own understanding, but is this true? I have chosen and used NA itself as a higher power. NA is certainly not a god. I am not ready to have NA remove my defects of character, for instance they cant. NAs will for us becomes our own true will for ourselves (Basic text p. 48) Oh, I can certainly make the distinction for myself again, I am concerned about the newcomer. My question is this: How can we make NA more accessible and palatable to those who would be willing to accept a higher power whose name is not God?
the steps as they are written use the word "God" they qualify it by saying "our[your] understanding. If you know your 12 step history then you know that this wording came about only after much difficult discussion between Bill W. and the other members of his group who first put all 12 steps in writing. The steps AS THEY ARE WRITTEN have worked for countless thousands, perhaps even a million or more hopeless addicts / alcoholics. LIke many, I too had difficulty with the GOD business. But I was broken enough to try something new. IMHO the best thing we can do for a newcomer is to show them how happy we are with our new lives. If they refuse to accept what is essentially a spiritual program, then all I can say is Keep coming back.
Thanks for responding avid. I do know the history and understand the dilemma that Bill and the other founders faced - I'm grateful it wasn't me. While trying to distance themselves from the Oxford groups they certainly didn't want to remove anything that was crucial. However, based on your comment, I had another thought. Perhaps part of my concern is that we do not live in the same world as the founders of the steps did. We have certainly become a more secular society than we were 80 years ago.
I know that many of my early struggles within the program centered around 'god'. I can relate to your comment that you were broken enough to try something new - I felt the same way. That said, my struggles were not so much from a lack of willingness to get down on my knees (as was suggested) and ask for help each morning but rather from the feelings of duplicity and dishonesty I felt in praying to an entity that I knew I didn't believe in. Reconciling the honesty part of the program with the act of praying was difficult for me. Long ago I gave up the practice of hitting my knees to talk to someone I didn't believe in but it was an issue in the beginning - I was willing to take any suggestion offered me, and that included prayer but it could not include belief or faith - one can't will themselves to believe; they can only deceive themselves.
Anyway, the issue comes up for me now for two reasons. I have recently moved to an area that is much, much more religious than I am used to. We moved from a very secular San Francisco to a very religious rural farming community. Our location has about 2000 people and about 30 churches. Getting used to the meetings becoming thinly veiled religious services has been a bit of a culture shock. The second reason is that I have recently taken on a sponsee who says that he does not believe in a god. Not that it matters much, his journey will sort itself out with or without my help, but he is struggling with the church within the meetings. I know it is not supposed to be this way within the program, but the reality is, some communities do go this way and this is one of them.
Anywho, it will work the way it is supposed to but thinking about such things is part of what keeps me happy. :)
Thanks for starting this interesting thread. Nice to see well thought out positions being articulated so skillfully. I agree that we are a more secular society today than in the early days of AA. Ihave no opinion about that. but we are also a more politically correct society, and i do have an opinion about that. While the desire not to offend is admirable, it can also be used as a reason to distort essential truths. While the 12 steps are not the only way to get and stay clean. They are the way that worked for me. And believe me Itried guru's, doctors, shrinks, you name it with no success. a core belief in NA is that in addition to the physical, mental, and emotional symptoms, our disease is also spiritual. You will not learn that in med school. It is what makes 12 step programs so courageous IMHO. they dare go beyond empirical science. But it was precisely that 'void' that i kept trying to fill that kept me using As they say in the rooms, I was using an external substance to fix an internal problem. I am confident, that for me, NA works because of my belief that there is a higher power in my life who can do for me what I can't do for myself. That surrender was not easy, but when I finally caved in I felf the weight of the world leave my shoulders. I love this aspect of our program. Quite simply NA without the " God of your own understanding" would not be NA .. It would be something else. Maybe it would work for you and others. I have no intention of trying to find out if it would work for me.
Hey Angell good thread, Bulletin #19 from World also gives a little insight on language specific wording.....WE are free to believe in any God of our choosing even if that is no god at all,,the process in recovery(,KEEP IT ON ME), that developed for me, from a dogmatic theme (that I rebelled from) to a loving relationship that guides my life and put into play by application of our spiritual principles in all areas of my life..The God of our second step may or may not be the same as the God of our 3rd step,the process continues to develop(even if you have always had the same god,as I did)25% of our steps actually use the word god in them and another 25% refer to "male gender(another scenario for some who may believe in a female god)Like stated, until the words"as we understood Him' WERE ADDED in early writings there was a hard time keeping addicted people around(see Bill W early history and Bills backround in formal religion)Ive heard Good Orderly Direction,Group of Drunks,Get Of Drugs etc used in context to god,,,,whatever helps keep you clean...After surrender,when we begin to feel that gapping hole to be filled as WE come to believe,something to fill that gap,,,the group,the program or we can call it god,it need only be loving and caring and greater than WE. An open mind allows the 'process to move forward.....WE are told we can use this Power long before we understand it...coming to believe does restore us to sanity......WE were all newcomers once ,in fact ,each day we are newcomers to the day,only to start our process over again,not using,trusting in THAT Higher Power and applying spiritual principles in all our affairs......There may come a time when the reference will eleiminate anY gender relation(god as we understand god and not him)for now THE STEPS AS THEY ARE WRITTEN ARE TRULY OUR SOLUTION,the principles they instill in us help keep us free and clean JUST FOR TODAY!!
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Our purpose is to remain clean,just for today,and to carry the message of recovery.
I came into NA as an atheist and used the NA program, steps, and group as my higher power. It worked for me.
The key insight of 12-step programs, I believe, is that they are not just support groups for people who want to stay clean. There is something going on here that is spiritual in nature. As long as that's a main part of what is going on, you can't really keep people from talking about God, or a God of their understanding.
There are programs provide recovery on a more rational basis, trying to take the God/HP stuff out. They work for some people, but not for me.
NA is God centered, of course. Why else would the Steps, our Program of recovery, contain that reference in almost every instance ???
It is plain and simple hypocrisy (IMHO) to say that NA offers complete freedom in that context. The choice of a personal deity maybe left to the individual, but choose a God we must.
Look, isnt it obvious ? Even the Steps that dont mention God allude to that Concept in terms such as "powerless", "Power Greater than ourselves", "Moral Inventory", "Wrongs","defects of character", "shortcomings", "making amends","Prayer and Meditation", "Spiritual Awakening". These terms are only read or heard or shared on the "God-Path".
The general idea is that an addict like me, by living the Program,will get closer to the ideal state of being, therefore being favored by God. The entire Program, is centred in The Higher Percepts,, all designed to make us better human beings who will never have a desire to use again, by living a Virtuous Life. A religous description would be like " we are truly free of Karma because we have stopped sinning". Simply because addicts like me chose the Good of God rather than the evil of addiction.
It would indeed be a big lie to say this is a secular Program or that there need be no God or Higher Guiding Forces !
By claiming we are a "spiritual but not religious Program" NA as a Fellowship steers clear of dogma and controversy, but nevertheless, this is a God-centered Program for self-willed, self-pitying, self-destructive and self-centerd drug addicts like me!
In the readings we hear " the Traditions are not negotiable" and for me this same applies in context of Steps too.
I solved my resentment and hate for religious dogma by equating God with relative things like; God is Good God is Good Orderly Direction God is seen in the Great Out Doors God is: Group Of Drug-addicts in recovery and finally, I rest serene in the comfort of the Truthful Definition that God is the Force that keeps me Clean and Serene.
And dear Angell, while debate rages on and new meanings are found, its my humble and honest theory that the God-centeredness keeps many addicts away from NA !This is borne out by my experience of 24 years here in the classrooms.
The God Concept will repel many, and because of that they will face jails, institutions or death , many will find other recovery Programs or lifestyles and some will certainly adjust themselves to the reality in NA.........
And that in itself seems to be the Divine Universal Plan,,,
It is my sinciere Prayer that atheists recognize that NA is all inclusive !
Very simply, anything that is a loving power greater than me and addiction is God !
-- Edited by Raman on Saturday 19th of May 2012 02:29:08 PM
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
... im sorry to say you have taken one line of my share and quoted it completely out of context.. are you puting me down because of what I believe in ?
whether you are in consonance with my beliefs or not is not my immediate concern. i shared my experience with God in all its entriety and thats the whole picture...
Well I'm gainsaying this... Im only sharing my theory,, which grounded in what i understand of my own experience with God and recovery.
i have no need to argue with you or anyone else, for that matter.
it really dosent matter whether you believe as i do or not.. what works works... we dont have to justify it !
you know,,, the right to a God of my understanding is total and without any catches. And you have that right too Don,,,,,,to each his /her own !
-- Edited by Raman on Saturday 19th of May 2012 02:18:41 PM
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Hey Raman, had no doubt that you would weigh in on this topic but I have to say WHOA pardner!!!!!!!!!
The general idea is that an addict like me, by living the Program,will get closer to the ideal state of being, therefore being favored by God.
addicts who work the program are favored by God?
I don't know where you got that from, but it is surely your opinion and not one that I share by the way. I truly believe that addicts who work the program have a great shot at staying clean. And as a result of staying clean there life becomes open to good things family, career, and self respect to name but a few. But let's not get carried away. We are no more "favored by God" than anyone else.
Thanks for such a civil discussion. Being new here I was hesitant to bring up such a subject for obvious reasons but I'm pleased with the results.
Though an atheist, the program works fine for me. I am Buddhist incidentally and while there are certainly exceptions to the rule, Buddhists are, by definition, atheists. That certainly doesn't mean there is not a spiritual journey for us to take. It causes some continued consternation for many members of the fellowship when I join in the circle at the end of the meeting but do not speak 'The Lord's Prayer' that they close with or join them in church on Sunday before the meeting. I am strong enough in my recovery to field the endless questions and voices of concern from those who worry that I refuse to acknowledge or accept God but not all are. Today, I received two e-mails from members of my home group - both were attempts to 'save' me.
Actually, I like the group and the individuals very much. I know that their attempts are done out of love and so I am grateful for their love and accept the way that their love manifests itself. That said, I could not have cleaned up here. I didn't have the skills to place boundaries or the courage of my convictions to continue working my program without the naysayers questioning it. In fact, I'm sure that their protestations would be much greater if I had twenty days rather than twenty years...and hence my ability to stick with what worked for me would have been much less.
Anywho, I really do appreciate the conversation. I have been able to glean some tidbits from this discourse and have already shared some with my sponsee who is needing some direction.
Hey Angell I hear where you're coming from. Sometimes the zeal of those newly saved can get downright annoying and more. Their overt proselyting is of course not NA but the actions of people who happen to be members of NA. I know you know this. The challenge comes in when they do not keep their proselyting outside the Group meetings. Religion, any religion, is an outside issue and has no business being promoted during NA Meetings. If some constantly push their religious beliefs during meetings, breaking NA Traditions, they should be taken aside and reminded NA is a Spiritual not Religious program and any and all Religions are an outside issue. NA Traditions are not negotiable.
This problem isn't new. For centuries countless wars have been and continue to be fought in the name of Religions. People slaughtered in the name of Religions. Most definitely not Spiritual endeavors in my mind.
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Work the Steps or Die MF. (My Friend :) Clean One Day At a Time by The Grace of God through The Power of NA
but dear, dear me,, theres been some dreadful misunderstanding !
Buddhists say that Buddha is God,, dont they ? So there you go,, how can a Buddhist the be deemed an atheist ???
And in the same breath, id like to share that Ive met many atheists that are wonderful human beings. I usually see them behave immaculately and the things they do for others is exemplary !
So who is saying that Love for humanity, service before self and other such virtues are the monopoly of the God-people ???
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
but dear, dear me,, theres been some dreadful misunderstanding !
Buddhists say that Buddha is God,, dont they ? So there you go,, how can a Buddhist the be deemed an atheist ???
A common misconception Raman. The Buddha was quite clear that he was simply a man. He said, "Do not worship the finger that points the way." On the subject of a creator god however, he was quite emphatic when he said that there was not.
Beg your pardon Angell, but the common misconception is that Buddhists are atheists.. They are not. A basic premise is that atheism denies the existence of God or Gods and is also solely concerned with the material world.
However, Buddhism is basically a path to salvation,,, thats why the 8 fold path to True Liberation. Moreover it is an established religion of the world. So in those various contexts, Buddhism does not qualify as atheism.
My main area of concern has been the plight of the atheists,, those who deny the existence of God or Gods,,,, should they be outside of the NA circle then ?
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Im now quoting from a very reliable religious source. I request the moderator to be open minded to this......
This maybe seen by some as going against Traditions, but the fact is I a not speaking for NA as a whole and only sharing some knowledge from a very reliable and credible source. My hope is that mis-normers will cease to be used here and misconceptions will stop once and for all in this context.
What Buddhists Believe Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Maha Thera
Is Buddhism atheistic?
Atheism is associated with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world.
The Buddha has condemned godlessness by which He meant the denial of worship and renunciation, the denial of moral and social obligations, and the denial of a religious life. He recognized most emphatically the existence of moral and spiritual values. He acclaimed the supremacy of the moral law. Only in one sense can Buddhism be described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of an eternal omnipotent God or God-head who is the creator and ordainer of the world. The word 'atheism', however, frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications which are in no way applicable to the Buddha's Teaching. Those who use the word 'atheism', often associate it with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world of the senses and the slight happiness it can bestow. Buddhism advocates nothing of that sort.
There is no justification for branding Buddhists as atheists, nihilists, pagans, heathens or communists just because they do not believe in a Creator God. The Buddhist concept of God is different from that of other religions. Differences in belief do not justify name-calling and slanderous words.
Buddhism agrees with other religions that true and lasting happiness cannot be found in this material world. The Buddha adds that true and lasting happiness cannot be found on the higher or supramundane plane of existence to which the name of heavenly or divine world is given. While the spiritual values advocated by Buddhism are orientated to a state transcending the world with the attainment of Nibbana, they do not make a separation between the 'beyond' and the 'here and now'. They have firm roots in the world itself, for they aim at the highest realization in this present existence.
-ooOoo-
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Only in one sense can Buddhism be described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of an eternal omnipotent God or God-head who is the creator and ordainer of the world.
This is the way that I used the word atheist. I certainly understand and appreciate the reasons for your reluctance to use a word which many have attached disparaging overtones and implications to, but I do not have an aversion to the word. I can however, see why someone may choose to refrain from using it.
My spiritual life is rich and I'm happy to make the aquaintance of someone who can believe that - despite my lack of belief in an eternal omnipotent or creator god.
My main area of concern has been the plight of the atheists,, those who deny the existence of God or Gods,,,, should they be outside of the NA circle then ?
I don't understand where there is any question or ambiguity. I see no "plight of the atheist, agnostic, pagan or whoever".
There is only one requirement for NA Membership, a desire to stop using. End of story.
How they deal with the precepts of The NA Way in their Journey of Recovery is up to them. This includes terminology and concepts such as God and they understand him.
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Work the Steps or Die MF. (My Friend :) Clean One Day At a Time by The Grace of God through The Power of NA
seen a few hate NA for it,,, why even some religious types hate NA. Last night, I was witness to a rave and rant at NA by a recovering addict thats gone religious,,,,
But like you said,, its upto them to deal with what NA is and isnt !
God sake,, it takes all types,,, dosent it !
-- Edited by Raman on Tuesday 22nd of May 2012 04:58:41 AM
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Thanks for defining your position so very well Angell.
I hope to be included in your list of recovering friends... tho far geographically,,, very near in spirit !
And I daresay,, that though an Ecletic by religious persuasion (born in a Hindu family and practice Yoga), I have taken from Buddhism too. Elements of Zen and Tantra have impacted my life very positively. Indeed, my daily Meditations are underpinned by elements of Zen and Tantra.
Though Tantra was a stand alone religion in ancient India, it is now an integral part of Tibetean Buddhism. The main concept that Im trying to merge with is the unity of mind, body and soul !
For an addict like me,, who was spaced out and impractical, knowing Reality is challenging.
Meditating on them is acceptance for me !
-- Edited by Raman on Tuesday 22nd of May 2012 05:23:10 AM
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
wow... what a topic! Frankly, I was seeking a Higher Power before I entered the rooms of NA 24 yrs ago. I went to several Christian churches, baptised so many times I thought I would drown. I even studied and practiced Islam as a source of spiritual enlightenment for a few years. I studied Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism. And today I would call myself a solid spiritually motivated person. I gained something from each and every one of these worldly religions that helped me better define the "God" of my own understanding.
When I got into NA in the beginning, I was actually pretty confused about all the "God" stuff. I mean, if that was the ticket, given I had done so much to align myself with a Godly spirit (external/apart from/up there) in the past... why was I still a SUFFERING addict? I discovered that contrary to what I thought, all my studies and practices didn't help me, they hindered me because of the restrictive beliefs I developed in that process. My version of "God" was very distorted or twisted on so many levels, that there is no way it could have worked for ME.
So, I started my journey in recovery and I had to dismiss most everything I knew or believed and take a new approach. Positive and Negative. Light and Dark. Is there positive and negative energies in the universe? My answer was Yes. Did the human spirit contribute to those energies? Again, my answer was Yes. Was I willing to align myself by accepting and receiving Positive energy/Light and being a dispenser of Positive energy/Light to those around me? My answer was Yes. So, a power greater than myself, started with the rooms of NA, then evolved to something of a higher source that resided in the universal plain. And as a by product, I was able to simply say... "I seek the light, I invite it into my life, to flow into me, through me and out of me. I am open to receive and distribute positive energy to those around me and to the world at large and I accept that source of power to solidify and fortify my recovery, one second, one moment, one hour, one day at a time".
This is my prayer. This is the "God" of my understanding. It doesn't have a Buddha, or a Jesus, or a Muhammad, or Joseph Smith, or a Saint...etc. It has no gender, race, a shine of favoritism for one over the other, or any other parameters... not even about how the stars are aligned in the sky above. It just is and its inclusive, not exclusive. If I were to give it a name, i would call it LOVE.
Now, I must admit... I truly believe that the religions I mentioned beforehand all provided me with some good stuff, stuff I still hold dear to heart. Some of it I have dismissed as fairy land tells, and/or myths of ancient times, but I feel that each has an element of truth within them that is worthy of retaining as a part of my spiritual growth.
I stand in the circle with my arm around your shoulder... and while the Serenity Prayer or the Lords Prayer is said... I silently pray.. "Let the light of love shine on those in this room and those that haven't yet found their way here."
That's it folks.... simplicity.. don't have to understand it all, figure it out, belittle any one elses, endorse any one elses... It's mine and it has worked for me for 24 yrs.
Step three says.. ."as we UNDERSTOOD ... " meaning that they all had to start with where they were at and indicating our understanding would evolve as we grew in our recoveries, we get to define and redefine our Higher Power so we never stop growing up and our Human spirit (within) gets to mature with time.
