So I've always heard this stuff at meetings "men with men women with women". At my home group when a new or coming back person comes in they make separate meeting lists for men and women...one has only mens numbers and the other womens.
Now I might be missing something but I see nowhere in any na literature that this is what we do. I think it contradicts na principles and is not the na way...I understand that there is gonna be some sick preditory shit goin down occassionally at meetings but it's not our jobs to control anyone...na is about complete and total freedom....we're adults and are responsible for which phone numbers we choose to use.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experience to share on this subject??
Im an addict and my name is raman. This is a contentious, vexatious and perplexin issue and will elicit as many viewpoints as there as NA's.
But, the Tradition is clear; maybe this group has decided that this is the best way to keep things in line with Tradition 3. That gorup is autonomous and would certainly justify those actions by adding that this wont affect NA as a whole.
Sometimes group conscience is manipulated by the opinions of powerful lobbies or popular people in the group. So until another sub-group, the opposing one, gets enough numbers to overturn that decision to keep the "boys and girls seperate" this one will stick...
Indeed, the starting point for clarity is to understand why this decision was taken in the first place !!!! That fact finding may be very useful in knowing ground reality... then it is easier to accept !
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Im an addict and my name is raman. This is a contentious, vexatious and perplexin issue and will elicit as many viewpoints as there as NA's.
But, the Tradition is clear; maybe this group has decided that this is the best way to keep things in line with Tradition 3. That gorup is autonomous and would certainly justify those actions by adding that this wont affect NA as a whole.
Sometimes group conscience is manipulated by the opinions of powerful lobbies or popular people in the group. So until another sub-group, the opposing one, gets enough numbers to overturn that decision to keep the "boys and girls seperate" this one will stick...
Indeed, the starting point for clarity is to understand why this decision was taken in the first place !!!! That fact finding may be very useful in knowing ground reality... then it is easier to accept !
thanks raman.....the first question I asked them was is this something you guys as a group voted on?? they said no........it turns out just a few controlling members taking it upon themselves to do this.......the subject was tabled till the next buisness meeting where it will be discussed further.....
It is a group decision. These are just phone lists, which are helpful for newcomers. People are still free to get their own phone numbers. Your group is lucky that there are enough women to have women's phone list. When I was first coming, there were very few women in NA (and NA was pretty small anyway) so we all called each other (both sexes).
Hi Dillon, and welcome to the forum. giving female members numbers of other women and likewise with men is pretty typical in the fellowship from what i have seen. Having women sponsor women and likewise with men is also the standard practice, so i don't see any "few controlling members" here. when people come into the fellowship they are often beaten broken and desperate. I think it is wise to have women with women etc, at least at first. Like you say we are free to speak with whomever we choose...If a women wants to converse with a man she can ask for his number. If a man wants to reach out to a woman he can offer his number...no problem there. But our focus is on recovery. In my mind women in recovery are best suited to help the female newcomer and men for men. I mean it's not as if sending around separate meeting lists is stopping addicts from dating right? I see the wreckage of this insistance to ignore suggestions every day.
that phone list saved my ass. im grateful that there was a list of women i called as an essential tool to my recovery. so why mess with something that works. why are you having an issue with a phone list you dont have to put your number on it and you dont have to take one. it is a tool that works if you work it properly. and if you think its a few controlling members as you say, i say thank God for them. women for women and men for men its not a dating service. and its only a suggestion of the program that seems to work for millions of addicts around the world. THANK GOD FOR WOMENS PHONE LISTS. HAVE A NICE DAY!
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kelly lofquist
Dont stress over what couldve been, chances are if it shouldve been, it wouldve been...
We have a high population of half-way house men in our meetings and, in all honesty, I didn't feel these guys need my phone number, especially since the men outnumber the women almost 2 to 1. I've been burned by giving a newcomer male my number. That's where it started in my homegroup.
We thought about making up an all-female and all-male list and have available... but we got sick of trying to update it all the time (who left the area, who went back out, are the phone numbers still working) and we were reprinting these phone lists over and over and over again.
So we got smart. When we had a newcomer, we'd have all the members of the same gender at the meeting write down their name and number on the back of a meeting schedule. Then one person would present it to the newcomer, specifically pointing out their name.
IMO, newcomer men have no business getting women's numbers at meetings, and newcomer women have no business getting men's numbers. NA is not a dating service.
It's usually through hard-won experience that these groups elect to do things this way.
my home group which met daily had these lists but they asked that only members with 2 or more yrs put their number on them which cutdown on the updating and less weeding out of those numbers still working numbers so to speak it works rather well. like i said having that list saved my ass. more then once! why question a good thing? just saying!
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kelly lofquist
Dont stress over what couldve been, chances are if it shouldve been, it wouldve been...
It is a group decision. These are just phone lists, which are helpful for newcomers. People are still free to get their own phone numbers. Your group is lucky that there are enough women to have women's phone list. When I was first coming, there were very few women in NA (and NA was pretty small anyway) so we all called each other (both sexes).
That's another con to this idea, often there is no women at our meeting....last night there was only one woman and two coming back from relapses so there was only one # on the list......the list came around so I put my number on it, a paranoid fearful controlling member scratched my name off as it came around, predetor police I guess hahaa....I've been with the same woman for almost 3 years, she's beautiful and healthy...If I was looking for dates the last person on my list would be someone putting up their hand coming back from a relapse. I really do understand all your points about men for men and women for women but what are we gonna start controlling next??? Na is about leading by example.
that phone list saved my ass. im grateful that there was a list of women i called as an essential tool to my recovery. so why mess with something that works. why are you having an issue with a phone list you dont have to put your number on it and you dont have to take one. it is a tool that works if you work it properly. and if you think its a few controlling members as you say, i say thank God for them. women for women and men for men its not a dating service. and its only a suggestion of the program that seems to work for millions of addicts around the world. THANK GOD FOR WOMENS PHONE LISTS. HAVE A NICE DAY!
Why am I having an issue?? For one it's that there aren't a lot of women at our meeting and there's a huge pool of knowledge and experience that newcomer women might miss out on because of this fear that's passed around the rooms....so last night two desperate drug addicts left with one # when they could have had 20??? Doesn't fully make sense to me. Too many paranoid victim women spreading their issues around the fellowship is what it looks like to me.
Dillion, it is clear that anyone may join us regardless of x,y, and sex .
Id feel very snubbed and upset that i couldnt help another addict because she was a woman. In fact I think that it is drawin divisions, really not a healthy or open minded thing.
And the women seem to grow up on a "beware male" attitude because that's waht they were taught in thier early days. Women should not biased in this way; come a day when she wants to use badly and all the women she calls dont answer. Will she then refuse to call a male NA because of this bias ? Why do we want to prejudice our women ? Why dont these people let things stay natural ?
Strangely enough, those same males that discourage females from taking male numbers are seen hanging out with those same females.
Forget sponsorship; maybe that's best left to the same sex. Especially when one considers issues like sexuality etc. a woman may best identify with another. Like the periods thin, feelin like the weaker sex, bein vulnerable etc. Same sex sponsorship seems to be the best round for growth.
But what about this ? I think NA shows me how to develop in all areas of my life, including social. I had no social skills left when I came into recovery. One way to develop that was to look at women as other than sex objects and I got the message. I can vouch for the fact that Ive never sexually abused any NA woman, why,,, Ive never had sex with a woman NA member ever. Im straight but have never taken advantage of a fellow woman NA's vulnerability or leanings. It is in NA that i first learnt how to treat woman with respect and caring and sharin without expecting anything in return.
I cant say if i could have changed my attitude if I wasnt even allowed to take females numbers........
What happens in reality is that few controlling members direct things in groups and make sure things go their own way and ask women newcomers not to take male numbers. And Ill bet you, they would be the ones hanging out with these women in meetings after meetings, coffee shops etc.
"We keep what we have only with vigilance" and one of the most precious gifts I got in NA was personal freedom. Im of the humble opinion that it is my freedom to ask any woman in NA her number, she is free to give it or not, thats her choice and should be only her choice, unless her sponsor has actually asked her not to.
all said and done...............
-- Edited by Raman on Thursday 5th of January 2012 07:29:01 AM
-- Edited by Raman on Thursday 5th of January 2012 07:31:59 AM
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
In the beginning of my recovery, there were only 3 females at our NA meetings, none of which were sponsor material (I'd asked a few to be my sponsor but all admitted to not working steps). I went sponsor-less for a while because I wanted an "NA" sponsor. We had a mixed phone list that was really outdated. I found that calling the women caused more drama and insanity, so I started reaching out to the men who were working the steps.
I got my butt kicked by these guys. They taught me traditions, we talked about the steps, they called me on my BS. Then they introduced me to my sponsor (who lived out of town). These guys saved my butt in the beginning only because the women were too sick to depend on. 4.5 years later, all of the women have gone back out using. I owe my recovery to these folks.
I was fortunate, however. I wasn't taken advantage of during this time. I was treated as an equal and gender-less, in following with the 12th tradition.
Today, we have almost as many women as men in our meetings. I sponsor quite a few of them. Because there's more equality in numbers at our meetings, we instituted this option (having single gender phone lists). Doing this a few years ago would have been a detriment to the new females coming in.
It all depends on the group, really. It's taking a look at the big picture: how can we best serve the newcomer?
so I started reaching out to the men who were working the steps.
good for you!! You wanted recovery so you went where you had to go to find it. There are a couple of key elements here. first and foremost is that You reached out to THEM.... second is that you chose men who in your eyes were working a sound program. This is a far cry from a vulnerable newcomer, all beat up by the streets, virtually no self esteem, knowing only that she gets attention by sexing it up and not knowing what else to do... You can sometimes actually see the vultures start to move in on these girls.
Thanks for the new replies, all helpful for me. It's kind of a pickle in my opinion....I do think GENERALLY men and women are better off seeking out experienced members of their own sex for help in the early days but NA has also taught me about complete personal freedom and the right to make decisions for myself. I see nowhere in any fellowship approved literature anything on the subject and I think there is probably a reason for that, we're not relationship councillors or anything else but addicts seeking recovery and helping one another to stay clean. Bottom line is sexual predation is sick and so is spreading fear of predators in the rooms. I don't know where you guys are but I've never seen guys acting like vultures around newcomers. I do know that I've approached newer females just to try to give a little support and encouragement only to be greeted with a stand offish kind of reaction which I do blame on the "beware male" crap being spread around.
NA has also taught me about complete personal freedom and the right to make decisions for myself.
Really? NA taught me to surrender to a power greater than myself, that left on my own I would probably be in active addiction. It taught me that the solution to my misery is in working and living the steps. It taught me to attend meetings, get a sponsor and do service. It taught me to think less about myself and more about others. It taught me that WE can do together what I can't do on my own. Of course I have the right to make decisions for myself. but where did my best thinking get me?
If I cant make my own decisions, then Im living life on default basis. Thats not a good way to live, not a responsible way to be.
remember it says, we made the decisions; not our lawyers, doctors, teachers, family or even other addicts. This fear, coercion, bullying and controlling wont work anymore and has no place in NA !
Yes, for addicts that crawl into meetings or cant think two sentences thru, others make the decisions for them. Because they cant do so for themselves yet !
But the 12 Step Tradition keeps me growing. And one sign of being a mature recovering adult addict is making those decisions. In recovery, I learnt that decisions need not be based on self-willed, addictive logic. One gets to learn to make decisions on information from valid sources. Sponsor is a first move in that direction. I for one, usually base major decisions on input gained from others but theres also my part to play in them. I need to take responsibility for my decisions and actioons.
I mean, look, if it is a medical condition or something legal or spaces where I do need professional consultancy, then i certainly have to depened on that information. But can they decide for me ? But know what the irony is ? Even those experts wont take responsibility for those decisions. A doctor may treat you, but you need to give consent; that's a decision you have to make for yourself ! And even in case they decide for you, they dont guarantee success. Same way, you may allow a lawyer to decide what's the best course of action for you, but will he guarantee the outcome ? No sir,, they dont guarantee anything, least of all a favourable outcome, so the least I could do is to take decisions made on information available, and then stick with it. No matter what the outcome, Id have the satisfaction of having decided for myself.
Lets look at anger; If I want to have a serene 24, i need to decide for myself that just for today, I will not be angry. Instead, can I let them decide for me that I wont be angry today ? A laughable proposition, ain it ?
And is it sane ? No, obviously not. Most of the information that came in my using days came from other addicted people. And in the same vein, when Im in defauIt behaviour about what I should be doing about a defect of character, input usually comes from others sitting on defects, justifying their actions. And I stay in that defect and cause more misery and harm for myself and others. But when I decide, just for today I will not be angry, and when I do this for my self, God Guides me, I look for serene people and serene things to do !
Just my viewpoint garnered from my own personal recovery experience; when I let others decide for me and try and live life on their terms, Im never happy, content or satisfied. The only one who can decide that Ill be clean, happy and serene is me ! I have to own up that responsibility, thats when the Grace of God, grants me those wonderful gifts, one of them being personal and emotional.
That freedom brings with it responsibility and when Im responsible, I have freedom. And freedom to me is not the choice between right and wrong; truly, it's the choice of right !
Have a Blessed day/night, and if already Blessed, stay Blessed !
-- Edited by Raman on Friday 6th of January 2012 04:03:01 PM
__________________
Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
NA has also taught me about complete personal freedom and the right to make decisions for myself.
Really? NA taught me to surrender to a power greater than myself, that left on my own I would probably be in active addiction. It taught me that the solution to my misery is in working and living the steps. It taught me to attend meetings, get a sponsor and do service. It taught me to think less about myself and more about others. It taught me that WE can do together what I can't do on my own. Of course I have the right to make decisions for myself. but where did my best thinking get me?
Making decisions for myself is a lot different today then it was when I first came in so is my best thinking. My best thinking today is the complete opposite of what it used to be. I have a problem with that when I hear people say that in meetings implying that they're letting a higher power do the thinking for them and if decisions were left up to them they'd end up destroying themselves again...........the whole idea is that we recover which means a change in our ideas and our attitudes.
If I cant make my own decisions, then Im living life on default basis. Thats not a good way to live, not a responsible way to be.
remember it says, we made the decisions; not our lawyers, doctors, teachers, family or even other addicts. This fear, coercion, bullying and controlling wont work anymore and has no place in NA !
Yes, for addicts that crawl into meetings or cant think two sentences thru, others make the decisions for them. Because they cant do so for themselves yet !
But the 12 Step Tradition keeps me growing. And one sign of being a mature recovering adult addict is making those decisions. In recovery, I learnt that decisions need not be based on self-willed, addictive logic. One gets to learn to make decisions on information from valid sources. Sponsor is a first move in that direction. I for one, usually base major decisions on input gained from others but theres also my part to play in them. I need to take responsibility for my decisions and actioons.
I mean, look, if it is a medical condition or something legal or spaces where I do need professional consultancy, then i certainly have to depened on that information. But can they decide for me ? But know what the irony is ? Even those experts wont take responsibility for those decisions. A doctor may treat you, but you need to give consent; that's a decision you have to make for yourself ! And even in case they decide for you, they dont guarantee success. Same way, you may allow a lawyer to decide what's the best course of action for you, but will he guarantee the outcome ? No sir,, they dont guarantee anything, least of all a favourable outcome, so the least I could do is to take decisions made on information available, and then stick with it. No matter what the outcome, Id have the satisfaction of having decided for myself.
Lets look at anger; If I want to have a serene 24, i need to decide for myself that just for today, I will not be angry. Instead, can I let them decide for me that I wont be angry today ? A laughable proposition, ain it ?
And is it sane ? No, obviously not. Most of the information that came in my using days came from other addicted people. And in the same vein, when Im in defauIt behaviour about what I should be doing about a defect of character, input usually comes from others sitting on defects, justifying their actions. And I stay in that defect and cause more misery and harm for myself and others. But when I decide, just for today I will not be angry, and when I do this for my self, God Guides me, I look for serene people and serene things to do !
Just my viewpoint garnered from my own personal recovery experience; when I let others decide for me and try and live life on their terms, Im never happy, content or satisfied. The only one who can decide that Ill be clean, happy and serene is me ! I have to own up that responsibility, thats when the Grace of God, grants me those wonderful gifts, one of them being personal and emotional.
That freedom brings with it responsibility and when Im responsible, I have freedom. And freedom to me is not the choice between right and wrong; truly, it's the choice of right !
Have a Blessed day/night, and if already Blessed, stay Blessed !
-- Edited by Raman on Friday 6th of January 2012 04:03:01 PM
Dillon wrote: "Making decisions for myself is a lot different today then it was when I first came in so is my best thinking. My best thinking today is the complete opposite of what it used to be. I have a problem with that when I hear people say that in meetings implying that they're letting a higher power do the thinking for them and if decisions were left up to them they'd end up destroying themselves again...........the whole idea is that we recover which means a change in our ideas and our attitudes".
I love this,,, thanks. im glad Im reading this real sensible, responsible share here on this topic !
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
