Dave R wrote:

---

John:
I am sorry you are facing such a difficult situation. This is a forum for recovery from drug addiction. Please don't solicit contributions on this board.

Thanks
Dave R

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 well put!!! fifth tradition springs to mind no offense to anyone

I've called an asked john( The Founder of MIP) to come back over and explain any questions anyone has.

This is not OFFICIALLY an NA recognized ( group) this site is a help forum consisting of NA members and thats about it so certain things do no apply and I may not be wording that quite correctly and thats why i've asked John who is the founder of this site to explain so be patient please he'll be along.

John covers the hosting cost for this site and is responsible for its running, he's never asked for support with that, but his homes are really expensive to run and he's always came out of pocket with that and depended on social programs in his area to run them and he's not getting that now so its up to each individual whether they want to DONATE to that cause.

-- Edited by BigV on Sunday 12th of June 2011 06:43:36 PM

I checked into it a few years back and the deal is you have to have a REAL address, and they dont accept IP address's LOL

Hello Everyone,

For the sake of clarity I would like to address a few questions or comments regarding my having asked for help on this board.  I am not going to beat around the bush, I am going to be quite blunt, honest and to the point.

1.  This is not NA.  This site was established as a forum for any 12 step members who wanted to utilize it as another tool in their recovery tool box.  It is a privilege that has been afforded to the members of the 12 step community, not a right.  

2. There is no distinction at the forum level as to which group or 12 step organization each person aligns themself with.  Be it you are a member of NA, AA, or any other 12 step program, here at 12stepforums.net, each person or collectively as a whole across all the groups you are defined as "Miracles In Progress".  Which group or organization you align yourself with, has nothing to do with 12stepforums.net or "Miracles In Progress" as an enity.  There is not any affliation or association between the two enities, other than one provides space, and the other utilizes it.  Much the same as a church that a variety of f2f 12 step meetings are held in.  

3.  As a 12 step group that by the design of the 12 traditions, should be fully self supporting, declining outside contributions...  Yet, here is a resource that cost money, be it the web hosting, domain name, the message board, chat room or even the webmaster who creates and caters to the site (myself), in the 8 years that I have hosted this portion of MIP, a dedicated area for NA members, not more than 3 donations of less than 30.00 total has been received as any form of compensation.  Nor have I asked for it, or held the group under the threat of closing it down in the absince of those donations.

4.  Collectly this site has catered to the needs of over 20,00O people. 4,500 of them are registered on this board alone.  Of the registered members that utilize this portion of Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums,  (NA) the percentage of those who have made a donation equals.... 0.06666666666666667 percent.  Do the math, that is less than 1/10th of 1 percent.  

5.  The majority of those who utilize the traditions to debate this issue, appear to hold to the traditions in a distorted manner in that they tend to think or believe their application is only in relation to their involvement with NA.  Yet, read what it says after the 12 traditions...

"By following these guidelines in our dealings with others, and society at large, we avoid many problems. That is not to say that our Traditions eliminate all problems. We still have to face difficulties as they arise: communication problems, differences of opinion, internal controversies, and troubles with individuals and groups outside the Fellowship. However, when we apply these principles, we avoid some of the pitfalls."

To summarize, we are encouraged to "practice these principles in all our affairs".  Both inside the fellowship and outside the fellowship.  They are spiritual principles that are inclusive, not exclusive.  This includes the 7th tradition.

Now, I didn't ask for help from a NA group, I asked for help from all registered members of Miracles In Progress.  I asked because I was taught many years ago, (entered recovery in 1983, and have been continuously in recovery since 1989.. 21 years now.) that asking for help when in need was healthy and humbling.  That I didn't have to always try to do things by myself.  I didn't have to carry the weight on my shoulders alone any more.  I was also taught that I needed to stop simply being a consumer and start being a contributor in the dance of life.  And I was also taught that people can't read my mind, if my lips (hands in this case) don't say it don't expect people to know it.

Since this site was established in 1998, I have been a very consistent contributor. I won't toot my own horn, the numbers above reflect what I have personally put into MIP work wise and financially, to support this as a safe haven for people in recovery.  I have and do continue to make my own contribution.  

Yet, when I am in need of help and support, and I openly ask for it, ...I'm attacked, and compared to a scumbag scammer, or the traditions police, who have not adherd to them since stepping into this site starts trying to beat me down with them...

Do any of the contributions go to the site?  When a group pays its rent at a church, is the church required to account to the group how those funds are utilized?  No, the group is paying their way for the space they are utilizing.  That is the issue, not how the rent gets spent once out of the groups hands.  I will only go as far as saying it would be considered reimbursement for what I have given to it over the years without any help or compensation.  I will never hold out that the site is being jeapardized because of a lack of donations, it won't be.  I personally will not let it be, as evidenced by the years it has consistently been here in cyberspace, and how well established it is, easily found, and user friendly.  It's been over 20 years since I took any of my belongings to a pawn shop, but when it comes to MIP... I would take whatever I needed to there, to keep the doors open here.  Thats just me.  

Now, let's be reasonable here for a moment.  Let's say, hypothetically that each registered member submitted a one ($1) dollar donation each month, as a demonstration of willingness to adhere to the 7th tradition, as a priniple by which they are willing to now live their lives.  Do the math.  If only 50% of the members in this particular portion made that monthly  $1 donation, if only as a demonstration of good faith personally, how much would be generated each month?  

I will answer that question.  More than can be justified.  I can easily say and believe that if this were the case, no one would have gotten todays email from me.  There would be no need for it.  However, I don't push the Tradition line down your throats, in order to get monthly funds.  Instead, when I need help financially, I put it out there, (which is usually once, maybe twice a year) and I simply ask that those with the financial resources to "seek your own heart".  There is not any requirement or threat attached to the request.

Lastly, and in closing I think it is important that I address personal accountability.   My life today, as a result of working and living the 12 steps and traditions as spiritual prinicples to live by, is a open book.  I am more than glad and willing to share with those who make a donation, a full record of what has been recieved by all members of Miracles In Progress collectively, and how it has been utilized or what it is targeted for.  However, I would surely refrain from and outright refuse such disclosure to any one who hasn't submitted a dime.  In that case it is none of their business or concern, for they haven't made any investment in anything to be accounted for to them.

I truly do realize and understand that my story of woe, and hardship can be matched by most people.  I didn't put it out here as a "one up on ya" challenge.  Quite frankly, I spoke of only the immediate need, not what just sits over my head in the background.  That has no bearing on what is needed to just keep my nose above water and be able to actually breath, instead of suck air.  Secondly, what I am asking for, is not simply to meet on own needs but to be able to give that man in a MIP recovery home who would be put out tomorrow for not being able to pay some rent a better chance, then my own economics could allow.  Or let the man who is reaching out for help, to not dail a disconnected phone number.

If these motive(s) are disturbing to your senses, I hope you will stick around long enough to get past yourself and start becoming a contributor, instead of simply a consumer in the dance of life, and when you have done all you can, given all you've got, and you finally reach out for help, you get beat up by those who don't think outside the box... then you will one day feel the way I do today.  Then and only then might you fully understand what is being said here.

To those who reached back to me, with a donation or simply warm words of support and encouragement, I thank you from the bottom of my heart.  A little bit can go a long way.

Sincerely,

John

Hi Dave, I am going to leave it at "seek your own heart".  Nothing more or less.

When a basket is passed, we put what we can into it.  We don't ask the YMCA, the church, ect, how much electricity we are using, or how much the person who stays after work in our behalf is getting paid, or for them to measure our water consumption that we make coffee with.  We put the dollar in the basket, we pay our rent with funds that are collected based on what our heart and finances allow us to in good conscious, and then we turn it over to the care of the landlord (organization) that is catering to us, and over to the care of God.

Now, I must admit, I am not going to turn over any level of responsibility, and thus control to any one for any portion of Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums.  Let me share with you, my experience thus far with doing just that.  Between 1999 and 2003 the NA members all rallied that they needed to hold online meetings in the chat room, give a newcomer, who has never stepped inside a meeting a view of how a meeting is held, allow the sick and elderly a place to go to meetings online, provide someone who was struggling with a place to drop into in the middle of the night for real time chat... and I absolutely agreed that this would be a great asset.  The room was opened, a business meeting held, chairpersons nominated, elected or volunteered, and meeting schedule posted on the site.  It started out with a bang... and I personally agreed to chair one of the meetings a week.  Well, within 90 days those who had made committments to chair started neglecting their service, a few hung in there, but the meeting schedule was changed and reduced from 5 meetings a week to three. The meeting attendence went from 20-30 people at each meeting, to 5-7 people.  And within a short time afterwards, no meetings were being held, no one who committed to chair was showing up, NA members were not consistent about supporting it at all, and in the end, I was sitting in the room at meeting time, once a week, by myself with no support for the meetings on that night from NA members, and no other meetings even being held at all.  So all the work it takes to organize and put it together, including making a online meeting chairpersons job not much more than clicking a mouse a few times to scroll the readings into the room automatically, setting the room up on search engines, (SEO) so it could be easily found by others, modifiying the Home page to reflect the schedule... turned out to be a waste of my time and efforts.  Then, again, in 2006, the NA members rallied to start using the room, for online meetings.  Everything was in place, from the previous attempt. I made it clear that the NA members who were seeking to start the meetings would have to be fully responsible for chairing the meetings, monitoring the room for safety purposes, attend the meetings, act as greeters for the new man or woman entering it... but it was going to be their own baby, they would have to cater to it.  They all agreed with great enthusism to honor their own committment.  Well, look at the NA Home page on this site, it shows a scheduled business meeting, and a online meeting every night of the week at 10pm.  Go visit the room during these times.  Not a soul in it.  The saddest part of this story is that over 150 people travel through the NA chat room each day of the week, yet they are all showing up to a empty room, and exit stage left as soon as they arrive because of its inactivity. The NA group email account, which several members (not less than 10 in past 10 years) have agreed to be responsible for, has over 300 emails in it from those seeking help or support, and I've been the only one answering any of them.

And you honestly think I should so much as consider turning over the financial responsibilities of this portion of the forum I created to this group of people?  Sorry, but I don't think so... that day isn't coming any time soon.  I refuse to say "never" but surely not in the foreseeable future.  I have worked too hard to place all that work in the hands of a group that has consistently showed that it is still a bunch of consumers, but not truly able to honor its committments to contribute.

I am and surely qualify as a proud member of Narcotics Anonymous.  But when it comes to this forum, it is not NA, it is Miracles In Progress 12 Step Recovery Forums and NA members have been given the privilege to utilize it.  

As can be seen by any one, because this is MY baby, I don't align myself with one group any more than another.  Each group meets here on equal terms.  No group is held to a higher or lower standard than the other.  I work across the lines for the common welfare of the whole.  I mostly operate in the background, so as to not bring much attention or focus to myself, as I am a very strong believer that the newcomer is the most important person on this site... no matter what group or organization they align themselves with.

This being my role, I get to see a lot that others don't see.  And I provide help to others in ways that I will not boost my ego by annoucing to the world.  One of the ways I get to see things, is obvious to anyone who looks... 

The Al-Anon group has almost 8,000 registered members, and AA group has almost 4,000 registered members.  The Al-Anon group holds 14 scheduled meetings per week, the members honor their committments.  The AA group gets more emails in a week, then all the other groups collectively in a month, and I have not had to answer one of them, the group members honor their committments.  And out of this total of 12,000 people, not one of them debates or attempts to challenge someone's asking for help that does so much for so many for so little.  When my hand is rised and I ask for help, they respond, some in very big ways... There is no attempt to belittle, degrade, or devalue my efforts.  They simply seek their own hearts and operate from a place of graditude.

I truly wish the NA members here would try to come of age, and do the adult swim, but right now, what I have repeatedly witnessed is the (majority) have yet to leave the baby pool.  I hate to have to put it this way, but I call it how I see it from where I stand in the mix.  

Dave, I have a question for you now.  (Others might want to ask themselves the same question) What about this forum do you not feel is NOT worth a contribution of $1 per month by you?  Are you willing to take the lead and lead by example?  Are you willing to put your dollar in the basket at least once a month here, when you can utilize it daily? Instead of try to find any and every way around paying such a high amount of money for what you get from MIP?  If it is not worth a simple dollar a month to you, I would surely question what it is you get from being here that is worth less than one cup of coffee or a bottle of soda each month.  If I didn't get so much more out of it than that, I would have been gone a long, long time ago.  This is not stated as a suggested amount, but a simple question.  Again, I ask you to seek your own heart.  Nothing more or less.

John

Hi Viablex1,

In your post you stated the following...

I would take this banner down then


Narcotics Anonymous
Group
Message Board 

this isn't an NA sanctioned group, also the domain is a little misleading


http://na.activeboard.com/t43339073/

I was looking for a place to share recovery, obviously there are a lot of addicts on this board that are committed as well but for clarification maybe send out an email to new members that says, hey this really isn't NA per se

just my 2 cents.

m

***************

I wouldn't disagree with you on taking the board title down, or even changing it.  Well, as an uninformed member I might not...but as a informed member, I'd have to oppose such action.  

However, let's review for a moment what would take place if we did.  Adequate information is vital to any decision that is made.

How would we list ourselves on search engines so that addicts both with substantial time in 12 step recovery and new comers could find us and find us easily?  During this change our portion of the MIP website would most likely end up buried on page 57 of search engine results, and take up to a year to work its way up the ladder of results. (most people won't look past the first three pages of results).  Right now, we are result #2 on the very first page of results when "online na meetings" is searched for on google.  We'd have to be willing to give up that position in search results, and it takes a great amount of work to get a site there. How would we qualify ourselves as a "12 step group of addicts", which is required to obtain space on this site and be catered to by the webmaster (myself) which is a requirement for all groups on the forum... thus 12stepforums.net... would we not be opening the doors here to every tom, dick and harry, including but not limited to non 12 step members, those who promote moderation instead of abstinence, or alternative recovery where the spiritual concept of recovery and the adoption of a Higher Power is denied as a viable recovery modality?  How about those who don't qualify as a narcotics addict?  Would someone addicted to popcorn be as welcomed?  I ask because some one with a similar addiction would think of this undefined group of addicts as all accepting, and recovery from "narcotics" would probably no longer be a stand alone issue.

Here is what my suggestion would be if the group elected to do something along the lines of what you are suggesting.  First, find a place on the internet you'd be comfortable having your "undefined" group of addicts, second, put together a web site that...third, you'd submit to search engines, and lastly dedicate yourself to its ongoing developement and establishment by making yourself available to its members, the group message board, the chatroom, the email account and any other bells and whistles you elect to bring onboard... 24 hours a day.  

When the group as a whole elects through its collective consciousness to remove the words Narcotics Anonymous, or stop endorsing the utilization of the NA 12 steps as its main source of recovery, or WSC determines that too much controversy, or division is being created by this portion of MIP and ask that it be removed... (which they reserve the right to do at any time) this portion of the site will be discontinued on MIP.  

This is not a threat, this is reality.  When it can no longer come under the heading of a legitimate 12 step organization, and/or it is threatened with becoming a open door policy for every and any one who works any other type of recovery program effort, it falls outside the scope or purpose of MIP and is no longer a viable resource I would be willing to cater to or have maintained on this site.

So, I simply suggest that the group and its members that are committed think before bringing this to the table of any group decision, simply because you now have a better understanding of what the forum it resides on will and won't tolerate.

As for getting a registration number from the WSC for this group, it is possible, but it takes a member of the group being involved in the outreach panel(s) at the WSC level, that expresses its benefits, that demonstrates through example how viable it is in cyberspace, that can show the panel(s) how it would be monitored, how it would adherd to the traditions in such an environment, and what kind of oversight would be needed by WSC.  In short, it would take a very committed person, with time, and funds to pursue this avenue and convince WSC to utilize this group as its online pilot project to work the bugs out of, so they would be comfortable doing for other online NA groups what they do for us, and utilize us as their example to others.  This is exactly what was done in 1999 by the Al-Anon group on MIP which was the first online group registered by their WSO. It was also done by the AA group on MIP in 2002, but their registration expired after 2 years and the group elected to not renew it.  They felt it led to far too much politics and didn't want to bother themselves with that, but instead focus on helping the newcomer... registered or not, they can do that, and registered or not, they can be fully self supporting.... through their own mambers voluntary contributions to MIP.

At this point I don't think this group would make a very good impression on WSC and any effort we made to be the first would be faced with an absolute opposed vote.  Can this be changed?  Yes, I do believe it can, but it takes a lot of work, time, consistency, and committment.  Not by any one or two, even three people but by the group as a whole.  There are many things they would look at in making such a decision, and I'd be glad to explain some of that later, but for now, I think I have said enough to at least bring about a clearer understanding of what this group is up against on several fronts.  

In closing, let me say this; I believe that this exchange brings about some very positive things, it brings information from the background to the forefront, it informs members so they are making intellegent, informed decisions, not making decisions based solely on emotional energy, or erroneous ideologies, and it lets us put a thumb on the heart beat of the group and its ability to endure over time, and in the face of hardship or growing pains.

While some of this has been a bit disheartening to me, one thing that brings me to a place of pride and utter amazement; Is that when push comes to shove, this group will pull its gloves off and call a truce long enough to welcome, say hello, to the new person, or provide condolences to the members who are in pain over the lose of a loved one.  We are a very caring group of people...

That I would not have any arguement with... its been shown here over the past 24 hours a good number of times.

John 

Dave R wrote:

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I would certainly donate if we had a transparent and reliable way of doing this. For instance, if we knew that this forum is being hosted by X and that X requires so much money to host it and that our donations will go for this purpose, there is a link to make an online donation, etc. Is it possible to do this?

---

 I agree with this usually the excess in groups that I attended in the past just went to world service to carry the message.

but then again this isn't NA I guess

Dear friends in Miracles in Progress,,

I would like to say a few words in support of John's request.
I would like to start with the fact that this wonderful Forum has offered
recovery space to addicts when all other avenues closed up.
I have been a beneficiary for about 7 years now and know at least two others,
Vincent.L and Manon.S from then.
This Forum has kept me from getting desperate and despondent in bad times and
sustained the good times.
Ive been able to share every single aspect of my recovery and my life and drew on your strengths and hopes.
Moreover, Ive come to the understanding that many read us when they search for recovery topics on the internet,
thereby fullfilling the NA Worldwide aim that " no addict seeking recovery need ever die from the horrors of addiction"


I can recall those dark days in my recovery when I was desperate for recovery
support and so I used google. Miracles in Progress showed up and ever since, Ive been a member.
Ive been guided in my ongoing recovery here all these years.
It also was my "home group" for many months till I reconciled myself to my local situation.

Cooncat Bob, Dean, Vin, Manon and a few others shared with me extensively.
We saw many come and go and a few stayed. Thousands read messages here and now we have
many really active members; therefore recovery support is avaiable for all kinds of addicts and
many manifestations of recovery.
Most importantly, I have my NA Program running because of sharings here.

Now to see al that disappear would be tragic and also bound to leave us all in isolation.

I cannot imagine what Id do without Mike and Mike, Don, Dave, Manon, Liz, Gloria, Ruthy and Lee and all sharing and caring the NA Way..
And my own reckoning is that most of us here feel this way too.

Hopefully we will all realize that "our common welfare comes first" and do our bit to help John tide over this crisis.
"tough times never last, but tough people do".

Thanks for sharing Raman i'm there with you brother.

Ok so I made a small donation on behalf of this board from all of us, I wasn't able to help last time but Gods grace has been good to me and I share back what I can in donation and support to those who help many I seldom donate to just one single person but to organizations that help multitudes and thats how I see Johns homes, helping many.

And thanks John .

I'd like to say that what this board has taught me something and its significant, its  not to react to swiftly , Ive had to really use spiritual principle on this board , at times. I used to have swift justice ,  so to speak , come to conclusions without getting second opinions but i've realized its better to get the whole family involved when raising a child :) so i try to let everyone moderate this board and posts unless of course its something totally rediculous from some troll from hell :).

ok so we're good here, have a great day everyone.