Many people in NA feel that the removal of references to Jesus Christ from The Serenity Prayer makes it to whomever the god of their understanding is.
That is their intent.
But, is it welcomed in that vein by the spirit that created us?
If the spirit that created us is the Judeo-Christian god, and is the father of Jesus Christ..., does it make sense to remove the reference to Jesus Christ so that people who do not accept Jesus can use it to pray to a different god?
No..., it doesn't. That would be offensive to Jesus. The Bible say's that Jesus will be ashamed of those who are ashamed of Him.
If the spirit that created us is NOT the Judeo-Christian god and father of Jesus Christ, doea it make sense that He will welcome that prayer as to Him if we remove the references to a non-exsitent deity?
No..., it really doesn't makes sense.
That was my point with the question about 'A Hymn to Amun-Ra'. Which I also sent to NAWS, and included another hypothetical question about a legitamate satanic prayer that refers to satan as 'lord' only.
Would/could that be spoken to the spirit that created us by intent, since there is no actual naming of satan, and have Him be pleased?
Probably not.
If I, by whatever means, come across a love letter written by you, to your wife, and I rewrite it on another peice of paper and put my wife's name on it..., will it mean the same thing to her when she finds out that I did not write it myself?
That it was intended for someone else?
Yeah, so.., after reading it I thought "That's what I would say, if I could think of it myself."
But she knows that it is originally to another woman, written by another man.
What if she could not separate herself from the knowledge that the letter is not to her. It is to another woman. I just used it to impress her, or get what I want from her, and changed only the name it is to. The original intent of the author is not present in the words. Because they are not mine.
Does the spirit that created us like 'greeting card' prayers that we do not author?
Does He find The Serenity Prayer to the Christian god so beautiful, even though He might not be that god, that it doesn't matter to Him that it is to a non-existent god originally?
Can you see the point?
That unless the spirit that created us is the Christian god, He will not be pleased by our recitation of it. Because it was not intended for Him until someone took out the references to Jesus Christ out.
And He would know that that is what was done in the hope that it was just as good as if it had never contained mention of Jesus Christ.
And, if Jesus Christ is not His son.., then He would hate Christianity because it is making false claims about Him and His plan.
So, saying The Serenity Prayer only makes sense if the spirit that created us is Jesus dad/father.
That makes sense.
So the essense of my question.., "Why say The Serenity Prayer with the references to Jesus Christ removed to make it applicable to a god that might not be Yehweh..., when if the spirit that created us is NOT Yehweh.., He would be hating Christianity and any prayer associated with it?"
NA teaches us that offending the spirit that created us is not possible by the recitation of The Serenity Prayer.
No one would knowingly do that. Teach a person to offend our god. So, that being the case..., NA is endorsing Christianity!
I know for me, I follow the suggestion K.I.S.S. I do know that the twelve steps of N.A. come from the Bible. I also know that a HP is a God of my understanding. I also know that the Serenity Prayer has been said for longer than I've been alive, and has helped a great deal of addicts. I my self am non denominational, but I say the Serenity Prayer all day long and have faith that the God of my understanding will give me the serenity to ACCEPT THE THINGS I CAN NOT CHANGE, the courage to change the things I can, and THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE.
And just how do you know whats offensive to Jesus? are you part of the trinity? the fourth eternal person in God ? (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit AND JAMES) LOL
ok just being light hearted (levity )here james please take it that way, or not HEH HEH
Hi Sean.., so you obviously understand that The Serenity Prayer is to Yehweh.
The God of your understanding is Yehweh. That is the stand that NA should take. In my opinion.
If they suggest that saying that prayer is pleasing to any other god that might exist, they have bumped their collective heads.
Only Yehweh would have an interest in answering it with the gift that is asked for.
But, if a person removes the name of Jesus Christ so that a person can use that prayer to try and obtain serenity from Vishnu, at that point it would be offensive to Yehweh, Jesus and Vishnu.
It can be reasoned out.
That prayer should not be recited to anyone but the Christian god.
Seriously? I figure if I get too serious and pick things apart too far, I'm not seeing the big picture. Don't get me wrong, I get hung up on the "God" thing myself, but seriously? What is the INTENT of the Serenity Prayer?
I haven't heard angered cries from the folks in Iran about the serenity prayer, and they have the largest growing population of NA members! And last time I checked, not many follow the christian path. Just sayin.
Hi Amanda.., As far as I can figure out, the intent of The Serenity Prayer is pretty obvious.
You would probably agree with summing it up as 'duh'.
But, what I am saying is, why would any other god than Yehweh be pleased to give that kind of gift?
Do you see the point?
I guess no one get's it.
How does removing the reference to Jesus Christ make it a prayer to every god?
Not just Yehweh?
Not every god exists, obviously.
Which one does? Does He recognize that The Serenity Prayer has been altered so that it is not OBVIOUSLY to Yehweh, and is He OK with that?
Just because The Program teaches that it is a god of my understanding, doesn't mean that I get to decide what is pleasing or displeasing to Him.
He decides that.
Just because an addict removes the reference to Jesus Christ so that the intent of the prayer can be communicated to whomever really did create us, doesn't mean that He is OK with us doing that.
It is just a hope/belief that the intent is honored in the spirit that the prayer is spoken.
In other words, it could be worded, "With the understanding that you might not be the father of Jesus, grant me the serenity to..."
Do you see my point?
I see it as if people aren't thinking about it enough. Not that I am picking it apart too far.
I guess we will just have to wait until we hear from Him to know for sure.
But hey..., it sure is better to be clean, isn't it?
I don't know about anyone else..., but I was ready to stop using no matter who the god is and who the serenity prayer is intended for.
I've had folks in meetings try and tell me that "the only way is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal LORD AND SAVIOR" and continue to then spew hateful, judgemental crap out of their mouth... which completely contradicts what the JC man would really want from his followers.
I was bruised and beaten physically, emotionally, and spiritually by the "representatives" of this god of my parents understanding, all in the name of an ancient text. When I came to the rooms, I wanted nothing to do with this christian god, especially with the shame and guilt complex i grew into.
When I initially heard this "god" concept, I was turned off. All I could think of was BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU and YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!!! After I realized that I was free to believe whatever i wanted to believe, i felt free. the serenity prayer, though I knew its roots were "steeped in judeo-christian" background, didn't bother me because all i saw it for were the WORDS. i could care less which god i was praying to, as long as this higher power was there to help me stay clean. For me, G-O-D was good-orderly-direction through the folks in the meetings and my sponsor.
in thinking about the roots of this program, it's doubtful they wanted to stir the pot this much with the freakin serenity prayer. i imagine they saw this way of life something anyone could do, no matter what their background was.
I think the dead horse has been beaten.
I guess, just like politics, i have better things i can focus my time on... like helping the still-suffering addict.
What a brain-f**k waste of time, and I fell prey to it.
Yes, I'm sorry... to solve the problem here and to help bolster your ego, YOU ARE RIGHT, EVERYONE IS WRONG. Feel better?
No Amanda.., I do not feel better. If everyone is wrong, how did that happen?
You are not the only one who feels that it is like flogging a dead horse.
So, since I have heard from what is probably the majority of the regulars here, I can let it go.
I had heard in a meeting once about 'getting it'.
That everyone has there own 'it' to get in order to recover.
If the paramount issue, as far as any one addict is concerned, is addressed in abstinence..., then THAT is their 'it'.
I can't know how much of Bill W. you have read. It really won't help, so I don't suggest that you do..., but his ideas included 'going to heaven' as the end result of applying the principles of The Program and faith in God.
But, if the paramount issue for you is abstinence. And it is being achieved..., cool.
The paramount issue for me is trying to get someone to explain the literature 'in other words' and to see if they can see my point.
I believe that because so many of us come into the rooms with such opposition to a God of any kind, usually because God is one of easy 'blame' targets before learning to accept responsibility ourselves. The founders of Narcotics Anonymous and the other 12 step program understood what a fragile subject this would be for people of our kind, so they introduced it in a subtle manner that wouldn't run us off as soon as we heard the word God, remember..an addict will look for the differences instead of the similarities. The God of MY understanding wants and desires everyone to not only seek him but to find him, therefore he works through people and the 12 step programs to unveil himself in ways that are accepting to each one of us as individuals. If we work the program and have the spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, we will continue seeking him and hence our relationship with him will grow into a more personal understanding of who God is to us.
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Carrying the message of hope and freedom from active addiction to the addict who still suffers.
I believe that because so many of us come into the rooms with such opposition to a God of any kind, usually because God is one of easy 'blame' targets before learning to accept responsibility ourselves. The founders of Narcotics Anonymous and the other 12 step program understood what a fragile subject this would be for people of our kind, so they introduced it in a subtle manner that wouldn't run us off as soon as we heard the word God, remember..an addict will look for the differences instead of the similarities. The God of MY understanding wants and desires everyone to not only seek him but to find him, therefore he works through people and the 12 step programs to unveil himself in ways that are accepting to each one of us as individuals. If we work the program and have the spiritual awakening as the result of the steps, we will continue seeking him and hence our relationship with him will grow into a more personal understanding of who God is to us.
Man, don't check the board for a day or two and look at all the drama I missed! Kudo's to you Mr. Big V. The 12 steps are the foundation of NA not the serenity prayer.
