Recovery in the Old Testament

imikens · Senior Member

Recovery in the Old Testament

avid · Guru

If this were an NA meeting I would say "outside issue" but seeing as how this site is about addicts supporting each other I have to tell that that psalm was a very moving account of the desolation one can feel when active, and the hope our higher power provides when working the steps.
thanks for sharing.

imikens · Senior Member

May your heart stay simple......

MIKEF · Guru

Absolutely Imikens! this is a message board and not NA, so one addict helping another is a blessing.. I also share your faith beliefs. I think of our literature that says 'IT IS EASY TO FLOAT BACK OUT THE DOOR ON A CLOUD OF RELIGIOUS ZEAL AND FORGET THAT WE ARE ADDICTS WITH AN INCURABLE DISEASE. The God of my understanding allows me to be fully aware of that...There is nothing I do that isn't trying to be in the realm of being God centered, I am human and have fallen nature and therefore have nothing that isn't from God.Only through His grace and mercy are we still here..Psalm 40:2 is posted on my office and I am reminded each day why I am here... smile

Raman · Guru

Hmmm,,,,
I remember the time, one night in the treatment centre.
I was forced to stay clean off smack, grass, tabs, booze and was going crazy seeing thos eweird, strange faces. And hearing those weird new things and having to sit in those weird counselling sessions.
I certainly was at the end of my tether.
Then it happens,,, I cry and sing,,,
"O Lord our help in ages past,
our hope for years to come".

Then they locked me up in an isolation room........
There I met God,,, as in a White Light Experience !!!

rocky · Senior Member

the god of your understanding i have to agree with avid but i also acknowledge the lord jesus as my savior you can find recovery in the bible and arealationship with god this is still a spiritual program addicts shareing with addicts to get our recovery from whatever our addictions

avid · Guru

Dang Raman, I knew there was something about you!
Like most addicts I get my spiritual awakenings in bite size chunks.
I have prayed for a "white light experience" by that I mean a sudden, transformational spiritual experience.
I'm ok with the way my HP has chosen to work in my life, but I confess to a degree of envy for those you so blessed

imikens · Senior Member

Just to make sure my point isn't missed. My point is how amazed I am that passages in the Old Testament nail recovery right between the eyes.

I could update the lingo, generalize some of the reference to say Higher Power and contemporaize some of the phrases and you'd think you were reading something right out of AA/NA.

As an addict I tend to think my addiction and my recovery are "special". That some how what I need to do for my recovery is unique. You know, how we all recover in our "own way".

Well maybe, just maybe, wink wink, my addiction and my recovery aren't so "special". I am nothing more and nothing less than a plain old generic human being like everyone else. And truth be told thousands of years ago the process that is now called recovery, the person who wrote the Pslams was already all over it. Just maybe I'm part of the human race addictiion and all?

No, can't be that simple hey?

Tahir · Member

Imikens, I can relate with what you were seeking to do in your active addiction. When I worked my steps after getting clean I realized that what I really sought all along throughout my active addiction was to connect with the Higher Power, I felt something was missing, and I searched, and I thought I had found it in drugs. Today, I realize what it was that I sought, a conscious contact with my Higher Power on a daily basis in my life. Using was merely a seeking, I had to a price to get this wonderful program into my life, a painful price at that costing me many years, but when I see what I got today in my life, I say it was all worth it...

Amazing how the Steps could gently lead one back to the God of their understanding, I met my God, the same one that I knew from before but in an entirely different perspective, a loving, caring and compassionate God greater than my addiction.

Tahir · Member

It's an amazing blessing to actually see, hear, sense, experience and witness my Higher Power at work in my daily life today thanks to the NA Program.

The 12 Steps helped me break this barrier I create and maintain between me and my Higher Power so that I can more easily reject spirituality and edge it out of my life. A Typical addict at work

Today trying to practice this program has opened up a spiritual reality which is actually so simple and very much real, it fills me with amazement and wonder everyday. I like being here in the Program, trying to live this way of life, there's no fun anymore in being indifferent to spiritual principles and denying what the NA program can do for me today.

As a newcomer I read this slogan on the blackboard at a NA meeting "If God seems far away, who moved?"

MIKEF · Guru

Hey Tahir, thats exactly where i am.I have always had the 'same' God of my understanding but the relationship is entirely different than it was as an altar boy.oh so long ago, and a member of organized "religion" My spiritual readings tell me that "pure and undefiled religion before God is this:to visit orphans and widows in their trouble and to keep oneself unspotted from the world!!(jms 1;27)Yes God led me not only to His writings but also those of Narcotics Anonymous,as this addict although walking close,was still too far away.Each Day through only God's grace(his unmerited favor for us)can I keep getting closer.. smile

.. there is nothing new under the son,man has been getting twisted since beginning of time and God has been there letting us know,He is the way out of the storm............close to the edge ,down by the river!

MIKEF · Guru

Hey Raman Im afraid i too only experienced "white light"revelation from peyote buttons on the side of a mountain! :) My real revelation came when I asked God into my life in 1986, 2 years after surrender. Now theres a light Im working to get close to smile

Raman · Guru

HI Don and Mike,, though the White Light was the first such,,
Im sustained by the informational ones/ educational ones.

When I hear shares or while Im sharing, insights come up from the Ground Of Recovery Princiles and Im walking straight again,,,,,

And yes, each day, I try and touch the Light again.
I know Ive touched The Light when I feel Blissful, Serene and Courageous and Wise !!!

-- Edited by Raman on Thursday 10th of June 2010 03:20:28 PM

Manon · Guru

NOT A RELIGOUS PROGRAM

BigV · Senior Member

not religous but we do talk a lot of God smile

and seek a spiritual awakening biggrin

.

MIKEF · Guru

Yup and this is a God given program..25% of our steps mention the actual word"God' and this is a "message board" not NA. We are a spiritual,not religious program and you are welcome regardless of religion or lack of religion..I personally try and share in a spiritual context(spirituality has many contexts,see Wikopedia) as a board member ,but would never deny my faith beliefs if asked!!Like Raman said yesterday ,are we good now with "clarity statement" whats the next area for "loving ,and caring' discussion!! 2 cents from the peanut gallery:) smile

imikens · Senior Member

If one would like to get a better idea of the difference I suggest they read "The Spirituality of Imperfection" by Kurtz. VERY much an AA/12 Step guy.

We are free to talk about the God of our understanding. Please feel free to talk about yours.

Recovery is open minded and tolerant. Not afraid of anyone's religion. But theology and spirituality are different things. Kurtz's book helped me understand spirituality and in doing so understood the difference.

His booklet on shame and guilt is also a must read. Its so good it has been posted online for free.

http://hindsfoot.org/eksg.html

Tahir · Member

Amazing stuff on shame and guilt there on the above link, thanks.

Raman · Guru

I hear you Manon,,,

Ive always maintained that my Real God is
THEFORCEINTHENA12STEPTRADITIONTHATKEEPSMEANADDICTCLEANANDSERENEJUSTFORTODAYONADAILYBASIS,,,,,,,,,,
quite a mouthful I know,,,,, but I can also simply say GOD.

Yes,, the Steps are full of God,,one way or another each Step has God in one form or another.
Some say God, one says Power Greater than Ourselves and the rest too have Godliness in action;
Powerless,,Moral Inventory,,Humbly,,Amends,,not injuring others,,admitting wrong promptly,,
spiritual awakening,, carrying the message,,,,
these are God in action.
Faith without works is dead !!!
So when the Steps dont actually mention God by that word, they exhort an addict like me to take action.
Verily,, action is the magic word.

Dear Manon,,,all that said and done,,, the name of our Fellowship is Narcotics Anonymous.
Narcotics is one thing,,, it is of the past for me. The anonymous part connects me to the here and now and all those Godly actions I need to take, to be close to God,, to be done in an anonymous manner.

So I believe that God too is an Anonymous Force,,,Keeps me clean and serene everyday !!
Therefore, according to me,, and in the Light of my own experience,
GOD IS ANONYMOUS,,,,

-- Edited by Raman on Thursday 10th of June 2010 03:08:25 PM

Raman · Guru

" The right to God of our understanding is total and without any catches" Basic Text Step 3.
This, I believe, is the basis of the proclaimation that this is a Spiritual and not religious Program.

Having said that, being open minded to faiths other than the one I was born in has lead me to new avenues,,,

Ive played my music at

Sufi gatherings,,

in front of 1.3 million people that came to hear an evengelist Christian preacher
(the broadcast show was seen on God Channel TV by an estimated 20 million people worldwide !!)

in Hare Rama Hare Krishna gatherings, concerts and sing-songs satsangs... I have a very broad view of God,,,

But all of these have been religious occassions.

The best moments in my music career has come when i stood in front of addicts, in the spiritual gathering of NA,,, and blew my sax !!!

That gratification is complete.

-- Edited by Raman on Thursday 10th of June 2010 03:18:39 PM

imikens · Senior Member

I'm not afraid of mine nor sharing mine openly and honestly. I'm not afraid of yours and you sharing yours openly and honestly. Healthy recovery is open minded and tolerant and honest. the problem comes is if in my Christianity I pretended not to be a Christian when I share. That is dishonest which would make the matter suspect at best. The problem is not that I am willing to be open about my faith.

Anyway and back to the point I'll post another example of the Old Testament nailing recovery later. Stuff to do now.

Tahir · Member

imikens wrote:
I'm not afraid of mine nor sharing mine openly and honestly. I'm not afraid of yours and you sharing yours openly and honestly. Healthy recovery is open minded and tolerant and honest.

Well put, that's a great place to be in...

Raman · Guru

Hi Mr. Middleton,,,
this jokes on you,,, heh,heh,heh,,,

would you be offended if someone said
""""all right mate,, in all honesty, my Higher Power is Beelzebub,,,,!!!"

Whats you viewpoint, if may ask, on Satan Worshippers,,the ones that hold the Devil as HP ?

Raman · Guru

Then again we read,,,,
" Many of us adopted an eclectic approach, borrowing our practices from a variety of sources and combining those which provide us the greatest comfort and enlightenment"
pg. 109,, It Works,,, How and Why..

imikens · Senior Member

Sound familiar? Again Old Testament......

Proverbs 23:30-35
30 Those who linger over wine,
who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.
31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup,
when it goes down smoothly!
32 In the end it bites like a snake
and poisons like a viper.
33 Your eyes will see strange sights
and your mind imagine confusing things.
34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,
lying on top of the rigging.
35 "They hit me," you will say, "but I'm not hurt!
They beat me, but I don't feel it!
When will I wake up
so I can find another drink?"
NIV

Raman · Guru

Still recovering from those ill-effects,, even after 22 years,,,,,,,,

imikens · Senior Member

"Whats you viewpoint, if may ask, on Satan Worshippers,,the ones that hold the Devil as HP ?"

Not sure what it is you are asking my view point in regards to.

If someone decides to worship Satan as their higher power and dscuss it they are free to do so. I am not afraid of someone wanting to worship Satan.

I am also not afraid of Satan. Satan is not God gone bad. Satan is a fallen angel. In Christianity he is defeated. Christ defeated him at the Cross. Christ's raising from the grave while many things is in part a demonstration of Satan's defeat and Christ's victory.

So on either front I am not afraid nor would I be intolerant of a Satanist sharing in a meeting. I'm not sure I've ever heard one. Not sure if a Satanist is all that into recovery. But would not be afraid of one or their sharing.

Raman · Guru

My claps,, thanks for sharing that.
Shows how truly Christian you are, with a tolerant viewpoint.

Ive also heard some folks say that acc. to the Old Test...
Satan was God's prime disciple. Satan then got too ambitious and questioned God ri something to that effect so God removed him from angelhood.

Does it mean that when we are getting arrogant, pushy, abusive and overbearing,, Satans driving us ?

imikens · Senior Member

Have no intention of correcting you personally. Just that the Bible is pretty clear in both Old and New Testaments. Satan was an angel. Yes, got too full of himself. In doing so is now a fallen angel.

Satan is a liar. I'm pretty sure he is more than happy to be portrayed as God's equal. Some stuggle between powers that are equal, good and evil, God is good, Satan is evil.

That however is not what is in the Bible. Again not correcting you, just pointing out what is in the Bible. God is God. Satan is a created being and was created as an angel. Satan did struggle against God. And as a result was the author of his own defeat.

He is now defeated and while he is to be respected as a part of God's creation, he is not to be feared any longer. Jesus won the day.

Again, Christian-Biblical perspective and not telling you what to believe.

imikens · Senior Member

"suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. ..."
"rigorous honesty"
"Gratitude List: A written list of all the things for which we are grateful. When they are feeling scared, depressed, or self-pitying, some addicts/alcoholics make a gratitude list. It is usually effective in counteracting depression and self-pity."

Ps 94:16-22

16 Who will rise up for me against the wicked?
Who will take a stand for me against evildoers?
17 Unless the Lord had given me help,
I would soon have dwelt in the silence of death.
18 When I said, "My foot is slipping,"
your love, O Lord, supported me.
19 When anxiety was great within me,
your consolation brought joy to my soul.

20 Can a corrupt throne be allied with you
one that brings on misery by its decrees?
21 They band together against the righteous
and condemn the innocent to death.
22 But the Lord has become my fortress,
and my God the rock in whom I take refuge.
NIV

Raman · Guru

Good research that,, if I may say so Mr. Middleton...

My sponsor had said very clearly
"Remember,, when you get pushy, irritated, resentful, aggressive and self-centred, Satan(dis-ease) is driving you"..

Good is God,,,

Glad my sponsor'd also said
"each of us human beings has the God-foce and the satanic within us, what we cultivate is what will prevail",,,,

I was also warned that working the Steps and trying to live them on a dailybasis dosent guarantee that defects will never appera again.
Just that when it comes up, I can let the Steps deal with it,,,,
That has been the NA Way of life Ive experienced.

imikens · Senior Member

Thanks. When I said I am amazed by how much recovery there is in the Old Testament, you can see what I mean. This is just scratching the surface too.

I'm not sure why I did not anticipate seeing recovery in the Old Testament. Its not like alcohol and drugs are a "new" thing. The early cave men probably popped open a cold one right after they dragged that T. Rex for a BBQ.....

imikens · Senior Member

"20 Can a corrupt throne be allied with you(God), one that brings on misery by its decrees?"

By the way, that one really gets me.

How many ways did my corrupt throne bring me misery as I followed its decrees? Why did I ever think it would bring me anything but misery?

Man.....

imikens · Senior Member

So in our addiction or when we are thinking like an addict you know how we think more highly of ourselves then we ought? How some say addiction is an over inflated ego not surrendered to anything but itself? How many of the steps deal with us surrendering to an authority outside ourselves, staying surrendered to that authority, seeking, as in present tense, to discovery our Higher Power's will for us and the power to carry that out? How our pride and arrogance cost us dearly. How gratitude is way more than an "attitude" and encompasses the posture from which I live my life.

Psalm 123
I lift up my eyes to you,
to you whose throne is in heaven.
2 As the eyes of slaves look to the hand of their master,
as the eyes of a maid look to the hand of her mistress,
so our eyes look to the Lord our God,
till he shows us his mercy.

3 Have mercy on us, O Lord, have mercy on us,
for we have endured much contempt.
4 We have endured much ridicule from the proud,
much contempt from the arrogant.
NIV

imikens · Senior Member

8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. We continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

___________________________

Proverbs 6:2-5
if you have been trapped by what you said,
ensnared by the words of your mouth,
3 then do this, my son, to free yourself,
since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands:
Go and humble yourself;
press your plea with your neighbor!
4 Allow no sleep to your eyes,
no slumber to your eyelids.
5 Free yourself, like a gazelle from the hand of the hunter,
like a bird from the snare of the fowler.
NIV

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