Clarifying the clarity statement !!!

Raman · Guru

Clarifying the clarity statement !!!

Raman · Guru

Where does it say we should not name the drugs we used ??
It simply requests us to identify us addicts, no matter what drugs we used.

Where does it control the language we use ?
It simply requests us to refrain from identifying us as addict and alcohoilc and thereby imply two different diseases. It guides us to understand that addiction is what we are recovering from and not specific substances.

So,, what is wrong with that ?
What is wrong with the clarity statement being read in NA meetings ?

Would Wrold Srvice Conference and World Service Office have brought that out if it conflicted with our Traditions ?
No.

Be very careful.
This individual called Bruce sounds convincing but look at a previous post a see his history of going around the Fellowship and being shunned for his attempts at dis-unity.

We keep what we have only with vigilance,,,

avid · Guru

This whole controversy reminds me of the proverbial stray cat.
It will only go away when we stop feeding it.

MIKEF · Guru

Morning it is so...I normally don't "feed these cats" but yesterday I violated my 'own traditions" and replied my final aloha! more in defense of my friends and the tranquility of this forum, but WE ARE ALL BIG BOYS AND GIRLS HERE AND THAT WAS MY STUFF FEELING LIKE THE PROTECTIVE GRANDFATHER all I can say is WORLD SERVICE BOARD BULLETIN#13. A debate here that will end in a split just like "is it a disease" etc. I have forgiven myself for not leaving it alone and am praying for the individual and my future better judgement.I can share anything that affects my recovery as long as it is experience and not opinion,NOT DEVISIVE', I am not stuck in problem but working in the solution and it is my stuff not necessarily that of NA.Lets get back to our "primary " purpose carrying the NA message that an addict ,any addict can stop using drugs,lose the desire to use and find a new way to live.If you are new here ,please don;t let this blurp in our forum turn you away.We are here for each other,free to share in a loving caring manner...Have a blessed and productive day! We will love each other until we can learn to love ourselves..... smile

-- Edited by MIKEF on Friday 4th of June 2010 08:16:51 PM

LeeU · Guru

jeeze louise!

Raman · Guru

ha, ha, well,, Im not certain if Im confused or you are Bruce.
If you go into it, these are only suggestions, well taken by most when sharing.

Most people do that by their own free will and choice, and do not see that an infringement of their personal freedom.
I do so too.

After all in AA an alcoholic would say " Im an alcoholic " cause thats what they are recovering from.
In Gamblers Anonymous they'd say "Im a gambler" cause gambling is what they are recovering from.
In Sex Addicts they say "Im a sex addict" cause sex addict is what they are recovering from

That's why in NA we identify as addicts, cause addiction is what we are recovering from.

And buddy look, lets get honest here.
Youve been asking questions so Im asking one of you too=
Is raking up issues and creating disturbances your secondary addiction ?
Are you an arsonist that's become passive but still in the grips of the dis-ease ?

Your actions point out to a violent nature that you havent applied recovery Princciples to.
And you've been hiding it under the phoney image of appearing to act on behalf of the newcomer.

That's a dirty game youre playing and another questions is
" How many newcomers has Bruce sent back to the streets by manipulating them into thinking like him ? "
(self-righteous, rebel without a cause and perpetually angry and not accepting of reality)

Raman · Guru

And remember that this is a for the addict by the addict Program.

Raman · Guru

Once again Bruce, youre quoting things out of context and taking bits and pieces without stating the full sentence.

I too share many times about how drunk I was or how high Id gotten or how desperate; yes I do. No one's objected to that.

However, I do not say
" My name is Raman and I am an alcoholic and a addict".
I simply say " My name is Raman and I am an addict".
I do this of my own free will and volition.

This shows Im not confused about who I really am.
But you bud, by trying to enforce your view that we can do as we like are encouraging confusion and self-doubt.
Not only are you confused and in grave self-doubt, but would like others to be like that too,
so you can say
"Im not alone in this".

Just as you insisit you have a right to and say as you please, so do I insist that I will use NA specific language in my shares and identify as an addict and an NA member.

Dont you see your error now Brucie ???
Please admit the exact nature of your wrongs, for no matter how long you may argue or how tight that arguement may seem, it is basically in the wrong direction.

In the process, members less experienced with the application of the Traditions are being misguided by you.

-- Edited by Raman on Wednesday 2nd of June 2010 01:10:13 AM

rocky · Senior Member

they don't call you guru for nothing raman i havce thought that th

Raman · Guru

aw shucks Bret,, Im just a recovering addict, hoping to stay humble under the Grace of God.
thanks, that feels good after being under attack by Bruce.

Jana40503 · Senior Member

Raman wrote:

Where does it say we should not name the drugs we used ??
It simply requests us to identify us addicts, no matter what drugs we used.

Where does it control the language we use ?
It simply requests us to refrain from identifying us as addict and alcohoilc and thereby imply two different diseases. It guides us to understand that addiction is what we are recovering from and not specific substances.

So,, what is wrong with that ?
What is wrong with the clarity statement being read in NA meetings ?

Would Wrold Srvice Conference and World Service Office have brought that out if it conflicted with our Traditions ?
No.

Be very careful.
This individual called Bruce sounds convincing but look at a previous post a see his history of going around the Fellowship and being shunned for his attempts at dis-unity.

We keep what we have only with vigilance,,,

Raman, trust me, I've quickly become a non-fan of Bruce, however, I take issue with some of what you've posted...

The clarity statement is NOT NA approved, none of them are and that's one of the reasons NAWS committees opted not to make it approved literature... too many versions.

In "What Is The NA Program", which is approved NA literature, it says, "We don't care what or how much you used..." I interpret that to mean that it not necessary to talk about specific drugs or behaviors and, frankly, I think it's a good idea not to. Newcomers can be easily triggered... IN MEETINGS. When I was new and someone talked about my drug of choice in a meeting, my stomach would rumble. Hell, the flick of a lighter affected me that way in a long time.

The newcomer is the most important person at ANY NA meeting and we can strive to be responsible in our sharing. We have sponsors to talk with about our specific drug use, etc. Meetings should be a place where we share experience, strength and hope.

gericang · Newbie

In NA, we follow a program adapted from Alcoholics Anonymous. More than one million people have recovered in A.A.,

most of them just as hopelessly addicted to alcohol as we were

to drugs. We are grateful to the A.A. Fellowship for showing us

the way to a new life.

The Twelve Steps of Narcotics Anonymous, as adapted from

A.A., are the basis of our recovery program. We have only broadened their perspective. We follow the same path with a single exception; our identification as addicts is all-inclusive with respect

to any mood-changing, mind-altering substance. Alcoholism is

too limited a term for us; our problem is not a specific substance,

it is a disease called addiction. We believe that as a fellowship,

we have been guided by a Greater Consciousness, and are grateful for the direction that has enabled us to build upon a proven

program of recovery

hawghead · Newbie

I have a question. Does referring to oneself as Clean and Sober or Addict Alcoholic break NA tradition? And if so, can you point it out in our literature?

-- Edited by hawghead on Wednesday 17th of December 2014 10:19:14 PM

Dave R · Guru

It does not break NA traditions to call yourself and addict, alcoholic, or whatever. Our traditions say the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. They don't say you have to call yourself any specific thing.

mikah · Senior Member

Dave R wrote:
It does not break NA traditions to call yourself and addict, alcoholic, or whatever. Our traditions say the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. They don't say you have to call yourself any specific thing.

...I totally agree with brother Dave above,,,though individual meetings can decide to suggest something to the effect .....''for the object of clarity,we consider alcohol to be a drug, and request that there be no distinction made''.

..personally ,I have no opinion on the matter otherwise.

AlyssaW1979 · Newbie

If the clarity statement was "Not NA Approved" They would not be saying it at Conventions, and only NA Approved literature(writings) are allowed in our meetings and conventions.

The following is on the bottom of the NA Clarity Statement, I have also attached a copy of it:

Extract from NA World Services Board of Trustees Bulletin # 13....

-- Edited by AlyssaW1979 on Tuesday 23rd of June 2015 03:21:07 PM

Davethewave · Guru

From my experience, you if you read the clarity statement, people just go ahead and say what they were going to say anyway. It's like whistling in the wind....

kitty doyle · Senior Member

OH my goodness... It appears that I've missed Bruce (probably a good thing) so forgive me if my words lack relevancy.
Truly I am an addict of nearly everything... I am a juggler of self-destructive behaviour.
I'm here because my addiction to narcotics has been by far the most devastating and most compelling of all the evils I've allowed in my life.
Through circumstance I am muddling my way through the steps of NA on my own with the support of this forum.
Despite my modest knowledge of NA clarity and vernacular, I have always felt welcomed and cared about so I thank you.
I love this forum and appreciate everyone that has contributed to my sanity!
kd

michaelg · Member

Actually it does break tradition six. You are associating AA with NA when you introduce yourself as an alcoholic. Basic text page 70. The other twelve step fellowship specializes in another problem. Ours is addiction. Our relationship is of cooperation not affiliation and saying you are an alcoholic states an implied endorsement. Same with saying "sober". What if there is a heroin addict that is new and yoi are the first to share and start talking about being sober and introduce yourself as an alcoholic? He might think he's in the wrong place. It causes confusion and you create diversity by doing it. Addict and clean is all inclusive. Period.

michaelg · Member

Actually it does break tradition six. You are associating AA with NA when you introduce yourself as an alcoholic. Basic text page 70. The other twelve step fellowship specializes in another problem. Ours is addiction. Our relationship is of cooperation not affiliation and saying you are an alcoholic states an implied endorsement. Same with saying "sober". Addict and clean is all inclusive. Period. While the only requirement is a desire to stop using the traditions all work together. One cant simply follow one tradition and ignore the others.

Bill E · Member

I have been reading this and really finally have to respond. First of all, the only requirement is a desire to stop using. How one chooses to identify oneself is entirely up to the individual. Second, if you want to quote chapter and verse from the Basic Text, it specifically makes a distinction between alcohol and drugs in the second paragraph of the Introduction (Fifth Edition): "More than one million people have recovered in A.A., most of them just as hopelessly addicted to alcohol as we were to drugs." Note this makes a distinction between alcohol and drugs, implying they are two different substances. This statement also implies that drugs are the source of our problem, not a disease called "addiction".

I take exception to the Clarity Statement because it tries to impose rules of conduct and language on a fellowship that "ought never be organized" and in doing so fosters exclusivity rather than inclusiveness. No one seems to take up arms against "junkies" or "crackheads", etc. in meetings, but alcohol seems a hot button issue. As far as I am concerned, the only thing that matters is "what you want to do about your problem and how we can help". Narcotics Anonymous, and our experience, strength and hope are how we help.

I have lots more to say but this is all for now. ILS - Bill E

michaelg · Member

If you want to only follow the first tradition and ignore the rest, specifically tradition 6. That's up to you and well you work your recovery. Tradition six clearly states that our relationship is one of cooperation not affiliation. By someone saying they're an alcoholic and sober makes a clear affiliation with AA while in an NA meeting. Period.

michaelg · Member

Bill. How about you finish what the rest of that paragraph says. It was simply giving a basis into our broader perspective and specifically says we focus on the disease. I think you are just trolling these boards.

michaelg · Member

You don't think addiction is a disease? Wow. Maybe you should do a better fourth step. You still seem selfish.

Bill E · Member

Michael - I am not trolling these boards. This topic had not been active for a long time. I was notified of the new messages because I had previously been active on this topic. Thanks for your comments. I was hoping we could spur some discussion. I look forward to hearing more on your perspective.

michaelg · Member

I just gave 2 responses on my perspective there's nothing else to add. It clearly states that addiction is a disease and it clearly states in tradition six not to make an affiliation with other fellowships by saying I'll coholic and by saying sober that is a clear affiliation

Bill E · Member

The 6th Tradition specifically addresses group, not individual conduct. As for the terms "clean" and "sober", while fellowships may have co-opted them for their own purposes, they are not the property of said fellowships.

cdbuckberry · Guru

Page 55 Basic Text , last sentence.

Bill E · Member

P.55 in which edition? I have the 5th Edition.

michaelg · Member

6th edition.

Bill E · Member

Thanks!

Bill E · Member

Are you referring to the "A meeting a day..." sentence?

michaelg · Member

Should read 6th tradition it works how and why. It specifically says that its up to us as individuals to use na literature and language.

Bill E · Member

Thanks.

michaelg · Member

It works how and why sixth tradition is very specific.

Greg B · Newbie

If we are being picky about our terms, Isn't it called Narcotics Anonymous? If one were so inclined, one might bring up the argument that name is misleading. We don't just deal with Narcotics. We deal face the disease of addiction. Again if were gonna be picky about our words, shouldn't it be named Addicts Anonymous. Oops that would give us a confusing double acronym A.A. and A.A. Or maybe we just keep things the way they are, which is: Some people identify themselves as addict/alcoholic (even after having heard the clarity statement a zillion times). They are in the right spot anyway. - And some, upon hearing this will become agitated and say to themselves or out loud "addict and clean is all inclusive". The argument itself is as old as N.A.

Davethewave · Guru

Good one Greg. My sponsor could speak volumes to that subject, I'll have to ask him about it!

Bill E · Member

Demanding conformity from members in speech, thought or otherwise does not, in my view, nurture the inclusiveness and diversity the fellowship needs to continue to grow and thrive. Conformity is not unity.

Davethewave · Guru

Greg B wrote:
If we are being picky about our terms, Isn't it called Narcotics Anonymous? If one were so inclined, one might bring up the argument that name is misleading. We don't just deal with Narcotics. We deal face the disease of addiction. Again if were gonna be picky about our words, shouldn't it be named Addicts Anonymous. Oops that would give us a confusing double acronym A.A. and A.A. Or maybe we just keep things the way they are, which is: Some people identify themselves as addict/alcoholic (even after having heard the clarity statement a zillion times). They are in the right spot anyway. - And some, upon hearing this will become agitated and say to themselves or out loud "addict and clean is all inclusive". The argument itself is as old as N.A.

Bill and Dr Bob did not want their to be two AA's....and seeing we completely borrowed their steps and traditions, it was only being polite to find some other initials. AND in the beginning it was all about heroin.

robertkarnell · Newbie

Why the word "dilemma" instead of something like, "we are presented with a "learning objective""? I believe the word dilemma is too strong for a newcomer who doesn't understand the traditions yet. It's as if this word is getting shoved down their throat. I've seen it turn newcomers off. It's not like the meeting stops and everyone goes home when someone uses anthing other than addict/recovery. I picture a dilemma in my mind as someone running around like a chicken pulling their hair out.

I mean really, the only "dilemma" I ever had was when I was at the end of the road.

Mike M · Guru

For me a discussion heard on and off for 35 years. And that's ok, I find it both humorous and refreshing that people still care enough to argue about it!

My name's Mike, I'm a grateful recovering Addict. How I've identified myself in meetings for some decades now.

Early on for a time I'd identify as a drunkie-junkie (sounded cooler than addict-alcoholic some others used) and I wasn't kicked out of meetings or ostracized, another time period as a pharmaceutical garbage can still let me stay, for a spell Addict and recovering Mormon still kept my chair, and probably some other "cutsie" ways of identifying I don't recall.

As time progressed I continued to go to meetings and watch and listen and share. I watched and listened to those that had what I wanted. In countless meetings and a kazillion service meetings. And began to understand for myself. And began to be real and keep it simple instead of cutsie.

My name's Mike, I'm a grateful recoverying Addict. Nobody in person or in writing makes me identify this way. Nor could they. It is my choice, a choice I've learned, earned and own.

Personally I don't give a hoot how someone who has the desire to recover from active addition identifies themselves in an NA Meeting, just so long as they Keep Coming Back so the Miracle can work for them too.

Kittycat123 · Newbie

http://m.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull13-r

Davethewave · Guru

Thanks for posting Kittycat, and welcome to MIP

Smootheart · Newbie

Jimmy K identified himself as an addict and a alcoholic was he wrong?

Irishgalway · Newbie

So is the problem here calling yourself an alcoholic in an NA meeting or is it saying that I'm grateful to be sober from all drugs that's the problem? Just some confusion in a West of ireland fellowship at the minute. A newcomer said he was grateful to be sober (from drugs) (alcohol included) and an NA Nazi asked the secretary to correct that members grammar. That newcomer hasn't been back since. Aren't we meant to be keeping it simple?

Davethewave · Guru

That's a good question. I agree we shouldn't be scaring people away. If someone comes in the rooms and shares using what's obvious AA terminology we (generally my area) will not say anything. Perhaps after the meeting someone might suggest that he become aware of the difference and try to share accordingly. I know when I go to AA i use their terms, so as not to separate myself from their message. In there I'm not cross addicted, I'm not a alcoholic/addict, I'm not clean...I say I'm alchly, I couldn't stop drinking, etc. Keep in mind AA also tries to limit sharing to drinking.

That being said I've been in plenty of meetings which open w a clarity statement, and then hear people cross over for the majority of their sharing. Whatever! The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using.

Nate G · Newbie

What about when I identify as my name is blank and I'm in recovery? Is this a controversial thing as well? Because of my own understanding and a few others I've spoken to, it is agreed that I'm not claiming to have any separate cause for my addiction. Only thati am in a program of recovery. Please help me understand a little better. Thank you.

WebHelper · Member

Welcome Nate. This is an old thread on a board with unknown and not very active membership. I'm sorry there was no one to welcome you to the board and hope you're doing ok today.
You might like to post a new thread and see who is around.

Mike Weed · Member

I wonder, Does the NA text blur the NA Message?

NA BASIC TEXT,,,6th EDITION,,,,

PG.137,,ADDICTS AND ALCOHOLICS,,CLEAN AND DRY,,HAPPY AND SOBER,

PG.126,,I BECAME SOBER AND CLEAN,

Mike Weed · Member

I wonder, Does the NA text blur the NA Message?

NA BASIC TEXT,,,6th EDITION,,,,

PG.137,,ADDICTS AND ALCOHOLICS,,CLEAN AND DRY,,HAPPY AND SOBER,

PG.126,,I BECAME SOBER AND CLEAN,

Welcome to the Miracles In Progress Group of Narcotics Anonymous! This is not an official NA site, nor is it endorsed by the NA World Service Office.