I have been around NA on and off ( more off than on) since I got clean in 2000. I haven't been to a meeting in ....well, a really long time. I don't struggle with using....I'm not doing any fucked up shit. Life is very normal. And I am contemplating what to do. I never worked the steps. The whole god thing is unappealing to me and no matter how many times I hear people say that god can be what ever you want it to be, the steps are written out to pray to and use this "god" that has the characteristics of a religious god. After all, NA evolved from AA, which is religious. Also, I have witnessed many people who get to the 6th step and start "looking" for these character defects that may or may not even be there. If something is not broke, then why fix it? Any thoughts.............
For me, a higher power is essential in order to work the steps. For the 6th step, i asked my higher power to reveal to me the character defects that when acted out on can cause harm to the people around me. i wasn't able to see them for myself for the most part. They were/are revealed and i am able to work on them one day at a time. My heart goes out to those who struggle with believing in a power greater than themselves because I believe, have proven it to myself, that that is exactly what I need to stay clean. I need something that is stronger than my obsession to use drugs. I was completely powerless when I was using. using against my will. not able to stop on my own. I needed something with more power than the drugs....
I hear what you are saying, tho friend. There would have been NO convincing me when I went to an AA meeting when I was 19 fresh out of the psych ward. I was atheist all my life and the concept of God was for naive people who were scared to accept that there may not be a higher purpose to our lives.......I hated myself and didn't realize it because my ego was in complete control. I had just begun the destruction and wasn't ready to stop punishing myself for who knows what....or maybe I just wanted to keep getting high.... Anyway. i get it. You can't just say "ok I believe now' Because sometimes what we believe is that "there is no God" or that "There is no way of knowing if there is a God"
The process of coming to believe happens when addicts like us are so beaten down and broken from using that they are willing to do ANYTHING it takes to stay clean...if that means opening up their mind to a higher power then so be it... that's when the miracle happens. and it does. I've seen it a lot.
I came to believe in God before NA...during a period of abstinence from drugs...I asked if there was something out there to please reveal itself... for the first time I completely surrendered to the idea that it was possible. It hit me in a flash and I believed in that moment that God is real and that our lives have purpose. I wasnt in a church when it happened. I was by myself. So...that's my experience. whoa that was way too long!
Thank you for the honest share Vanleer :) it is great that you are reaching out...If you know you are an addict, just remember how this disease can lie in wake...waiting for us to think we got it licked.
Hey Van Leer! Welcome to site.... Let me share whats up with me and its kinda reverse of you..First of all I began my "surrender " in 1984 after almost 25 years of using(jails,divorces,deaths,felony arrests,etc.I went around to program very sporactically and had a sponsor who was an AA type of guy.We never worked steps or really anything but go to meetings together,He died within a year and I stopped attending program.2 years later(and this may be the key for my difference than yours)I accepted the God of my understanding and went forward doing the best I could.23 YEARS later,still "clean:" I ended up back in the rooms> I thought, My son (23) a heroin addict in recovery now,That I may send a message to him>.I realized with a few months that it was me that needed to be here, that my life ,though not using was still a mess..Even with my faith beliefs I felt something missing. After a few months I got a sponsor(someone I could relate to,im almost 62 years oldand I wanted someone I could identify with) Not that this is the norm but it is what 'I NEEDED"Anyway,almost 2 years later my life has benefitted immensely.I am working my steps(go hand in hand with my faith beliefs)Taking from the meetings what I can use and discarding the rest and doing service(speaker jams,making coffee ,set up etc)By practising the spiritual principles of the program in accordance with my faith beliefs I have seen myself becoming a "better person"I am gradually trying to improve in all areas of my life and Most of all I may be able to give back to another suffering addict some of my experiences that may help them.I am no knight in shining armour and am still very guarded but being able to get help from my sponsor,my support group(such as this site) meetings weekly, home group and sharing, etc and doing the work incorporating steps into my life I feel more at peace.'TEXT SAYS "COMPLACENCY CAN BE BIGGEST ENEMY OF THOSE WITH SUBSTANTIAL CLEAN TIME.also the program is not for those who may really need it its for those who "want it,so only you can determine that for yourself.This really is "not" about religion but about spiritual principles,but you will struggle without A God base for your program. That can just be GOOD ORDERLY DIRECTION,IF THE gOD THING BOTHERS YOU.you could also read the "big book ,chapter on "we agnostics" helpful in sorting that out(Basic Text obviously)!!I believe the program(for me) is also about learning to live a better life,obviously never using the drugs are an important matter, but functioning in life without being twisted takes work ..I am now after all these years really appreciating what working a "recovery program "is about for me rather than just being abstinent...I know its a long diatribe but just letting you know"where I m coming from"...I wish you peace in your decisions mikef
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Our purpose is to remain clean,just for today,and to carry the message of recovery.
Well, gotta drag out the whole pot for this. Hi....yeah, lottsa thoughts.
My first thought was OK, so then why are you here--what's the motivation? Then my second thought was OK, you say you are contemplating what to do...so, what to do about what??? Being too impatient to wait for some clarification, I'll just do my thing and think while I type. Sounds like the essence of the dilemma is (1) your relationship to, or with, the notion of God/god and/or religion, and (2) your beliefs about the assertion that we have "defects of character", and that they need removing...by U know who.
For me, I came in as an atheist and very anti-religion. It took several years of emotional and intellectual fun and games before I could stop trying to twist it, change it, fight it, reject it, run from it, rail against it etc. and come to a true inner, and peaceful, acceptance that the steps are written as they are because that is indeed what works. Like it or not. So, that was quite a journey for me, and I was gifted with traveling it clean and sober, in spite of myself.
I had less problem with the character defects, because I beleived I had "character" and some of it was deficient. Assets and liabilities. I was tired and wanted to be rid of my liabilities, so I didn't have to dig under rocks to find them...it was simply a matter of being rigorously honest. As for their removl, I didn't care who or what helped me scrape 'em off my shoe and move on, I just wanted to be a better me. Even an atheist can play the game and genuinely say "Good Orderly Direction, blah, blah, blah...". No, not kidding...that's what I did, and it worked. Good Orderly Direction...not a problem...yes, I want that...bring it on.
Last thought, don't get hung up on the labels or give a fig about what others say or do if it's not for you. Other may vigorously disagree, Ibut I happen to believe the online NA contact can be just as beneficial as live meetings, especially when live meetings are just not in your universe. :)
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From dying and surviving to living and thriving. LeeU
'TEXT SAYS "COMPLACENCY CAN BE BIGGEST ENEMY OF THOSE WITH SUBSTANTIAL CLEAN TIME.also the program is not for those who may really need it its for those who "want it,so only you can determine that for yourself.This really is "not" about religion but about spiritual principles,but you will struggle without A God base for your program. That can just be GOOD ORDERLY DIRECTION,IF THE gOD THING BOTHERS YOU.
Being too impatient to wait for some clarification, I'll just do my thing and think while I type.
hahahahahahahah!!!! Lee you are hilarious:) Thank you for your post. I struggle with how to offer guidance in this area while still carrying a clear NA message. This forum is amazing and proves that the therapuetic value of one addict helping another is not limited to physical presence. ;)
Hey Vanleer. Thanks for the post. Listen, 12-step programs are not for everyone. That's just the way it is. Of course, this board is frequented by folks who are involved in a 12-step program, so we're pretty much in favor of it.
As for my experience, when I got introduced to 12-step recovery, I had ZERO interest. However, I was court stipulated and so I got more exposure than I would have gotten on my own. It was good, though, because what I discovered was that I liked what some of the people had. They seemed to be happy and living free.
I didn't necessarily want god or the steps or anything like that, but I wanted what they had. I figured that in order to get what they had, I had to do what they did. I figured that I had used for 12 years. I would do it their way for 12 years and then decide which I liked better. I thought it was fair to give it equal time.
So, I committed for 12 years. I told myself that it didn't matter what I thought about it. It didn't matter how I felt about it. I would just do it and see what happened.
That was my commitment. Along the way I found ways to deal with god and spirituality and all that. I still don't believe in god, by the way. But I do work the 12 steps to the best of my ability and I like what it's done for me.
Now I am one of those people who are happy and free.
All the best to you on your journey. I hope you find what you're looking for.
I've got a couple thoughts. Why are you here asking? Sounds like you're doing just fine with staying clean and you've got the God thing all figured out. What is it that you think is lacking in your life? What's bugging you? I'm sure that you didn't come dragging in here because your serenity level was a little too high
Tons of great stuff in this post . Thank all of you for taking the time.
Im not nearly as eloquent as my brothers and sisters in the fellowship so excuse me while I break it on down to something within my capabilities .
Im an addict. My life and every aspect of my life was controlled by drugs . I was completely and totally unmanageable . I crawled through the doors of NA because even though I had a desire to get clean . I couldnt . I was tired . I was sick . My spirit was broken . My ass was whipped !
I was far beyond wanting to question to much. I did question some things but mostly that was just to test other members ( thank you Dean ) Bottom line. I didnt give a rats ass what they told me to do . I was doing it.
I myself see big differances in 1 . users 2. heavy users and 3 . addicts. The first two I could have controled and quit by myself. I could have made my life wonderful and made great sport of 12 step programs . But Im not like that. Im an addict .
I want to get better , I know a way. Your way may work fine for you and thats great. But your way will kill me.
IMHO !
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The fundamental delusion of humanity , is to suppose that I am here and you are out there .
I thank you all for your input. It gives me alot to think about. I definitely was addicted ...to drugs and a whole lifestyle. There was no control. But to say I am an addict now? It doesn't make sense. I know the definition of the word. And I know how to think for myself. None of this means that there is no room for growth for me. I am not perfect. I guess alot of this comes from some of the people i have met over the years in meetings. When I first came around, everyone was gung-ho, the NA police......... very condescending attitudes, similar to Dean's response above. If you were a newcomer, you didnt know shit. And I found this to be a turn off.....my self esteem wasnt the greatest...what if they scared me right out the door? Then after going back to meetings years later, it seemed like it turned into a social club...... I understand...people will be people, but it definitely has a bearing on how you perceive the program. Obviously I am here for a reason,,,,,,,,,,,,trying to figure things out like everyone else
vanleer, what's condenscending about my questions? I actually felt the same way about your original post. I noticed that you didn't really answer any of them other than your general statement "trying to figure things out". You say this after making several statements about the program (slamming it imo) AA is Not a religious program. There is no leader, no doctrine, no promise of eternal life or damnation. It is a spiritual program where one identifies that he is powerless and that something in the universe is of a higher power. The purpose is to get one out of themself and realize that they aren't the center of the universe. To deflate ego and gain humility. It's a process and it takes work.
You've gotta admit that you've been doing it your way. You've never worked the steps, think that a higher power is a joke. You have reservations and that you've been out of the program more than in. You've even given us the reasons why and "if it ain't broke, than why fix it". I just asked, if you've got it all figured out, then why turn around and ask what we think? Usually people do that so that they can pick an argument based on what they think that they "know" so that they can validate themselves and say " see, they had a condescending attitude".
The program is for people who want it, not for people who need it. You've made it clear that you don't want it or need it, so why drag in here and kick the tires while others are working hard to do this program? Isn't that "condescending" like "I'm so smart, I don't use, don't feel like using and I don't work the steps or believe in a higher power"? Just saying, why are you here? You either want to work this thing or seek other recovery options (plenty of them out there). Good luck in your journey.
Thanks, vanleer, for provoking an interesting thread.
Anthony, personally I think you are one of the most eloquent of posters!
I am struggling with labels lately, myself. Am I diabetic, or a person who has diabetes? Am I a dope fiend, or a person who has the brain disorder of addiction? Am I "recovering", or at 26 years clean time "recovered"?
And before anybody gets their knickers in a twist, no, I do NOT believe there is a "cure". Recovered from active addiction does not mean it's out of my body...it's just in remission. I do everything possible to keep it that way, including a daily recognition that I am Not-God (great book by Ernst Kurtz), and God is. Need that Good Orderly Direction, on a daily basis.
Thanks alygat4, I am forwarding your appreciation of my funnybone on to my ex-husband, who was constantly berating me for having "no sense of humor"!
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From dying and surviving to living and thriving. LeeU
Hi Vanleer, I have also felt the discomfort about the G-word. Even today, I prefer the word "Higher Power", and understand it to mean "A Power Greater Than Me/My Addiction"... this serves me well as it allows me the possibility of tapping into this Power more easily, like when I'm physically sick, I just apply my second step by going to a Doctor, and then follow his directions/suggestions by applying my Third Step, to cite one example...
And Sixth Step for me is not so much about fixing my defects of character, it's about acknowledging myself as I am, all of my self. Acknowledging, owning and embracing myself as I'm is how I am able to become entirely ready to change to something more advantageous and beneficial in life.
My first Sponsor used to tell me - defects of character are nothing but 'untransformed virtues', that our defects/mistakes is where our growth is. When I worked my Sixth Step with the help of my Sponsor, I made my truce with my shortcomings, my Sponsor and the process of the Sixth Step itself helped me liberate myself from my stigma, my misconception that defects are a bad evil monster about to destroy me, that I must somehow dread them, try hard to get rid of them or deny their presence within me. I did a Sixth Step inventory I remember where I realized that my defects were there in me for a reason, that my truest self lay hidden beneath these defects, concealed by the expression of these defects... When I identify my defects in any incident today, and see why I took into use these defects of character, I get to find out what I truly needed/wanted deep inside, and why I thought that I can only achieve what I truly seek by using my defects of character. I make use of this inventory even today as it reveals to me what I end up getting when I use my defects of character, and how I can actually get what I truly desire by actually using the "transformed" counterparts of my defects of character - the virtues. And that's when I move on to Step Seven, to a Power Greater than me that could help me here... It's not like having to fix something which is broken for me... It's like finding the real essence of my being, hidden beneath my human limitations, and moving on to something more advantageous and amazingly beautiful than what it might be now, in a way
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"If we do an honest examination of exactly what we are giving, we are better able to evaluate the results we are getting."Chapter 10 - Emotional Pain - NA Way of Life.
NA offers only one promise, that of freedom from active addiction. All the rest is for the addict to figure out.
Vanleer, the difference between a religious and spiritual program is this; religion demands blind faith, wheras NA being spiritual allows the addict freedom of choice as well as asking questions.
When I was a newcomer, and to this day, I dont know what would have happened to my recovery if I had not developed the ability to critically reason things.
The point is that being critical of the concepts or people here is not what Im talking about, it is all about being critical (without being a harsh judge) of myself in terms of motives, thoughts and actions !
In all my years in this Fellowship, Ive never seen this Program not work for an addict, any addict that tried !
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Raman an addict clean and serene just for today in NA Worldwide ; live to love and love to live the NA Way !!!
Well, gotta drag out the whole pot for this. Hi....yeah, lottsa thoughts.
