new member (tweaker in MMT)

baggs7601 · Newbie

new member (tweaker in MMT)

drugfree · Senior Member

hey and welcome,

In my opinion the desire dose to get rid of the cravings to use drugs is 0mg, and a healthy dose of the tweleve steps. Getting sick is half the motivation never to use drugs again. Being dope sick from opiates will not kill you, you'll just feel like that. The only way i've stayed clean is by working the tweleve steps going to plenty of meetings and changing my life.... but again that's just my opinion...

BigV · Senior Member

One paragraph in the step 1 literature says:

Being clean and working this step, we are released from our chains. However, none of the steps work by magic. We do not just say the words of this step; we learn to live them. We see for ourselves that the Program has something to offer us

http://www.earthgroupna.org/literature/basictext/step1.htm

Welcome aboard Brian keep coming back we're here to help you.

DeanC · Guru

Hey Brian,

Welcome to the board. congrats on getting away from meth, and having a life really! Now with this support base, that you have, it would be a good time to get off of methadone (which I've heard is no picnic either) to be clean and sober. You're still medicating and have substituted one drug for another and are not "dealing" with the core issues that are driving your addictions. When we medicate, to eliminate negative feelings from issues, presumably from our childhood and baggage we gathered along the way, we also throw out all the good feelings (love, peace, joy, happiness, serenity, satisfaction, acceptance, contentment....) with the negative ones. When we use drugs we substitute the temporary sensations of pleasure and euphoria for these above positive feelings and in between using the ugly feelings slip back in along with our low self esteem, low self worth, and all around disingenuousness. The trouble is that over time, these negative feelings grow as the baggage collects, and the body grows a tolerance to the drugs used and the dose needed just to feel "normal" with have to be increased regularly. Add to that the feelings of pleasure and euphoria will leave and depression will take it's place. This is the point that we recovering folks note as when the drug "turns on us" and goes from "being our best friend to our worst enemy". AA calls alcohol "The rapacious creditor" but this works for all drugs as well. Think of the story of the guy who makes a deal with the devil and the devil comes back for his soul way too early. You may think that you're enjoying a free lunch now, and I hope that you'll take these suggestions here and get into recovery of off drugs completely (aside from what a Dr. might prescribe for clinical depression). These is a much better life waiting for you here on the other side. Many on this board have been enjoying years to multiple decades of living clean and sober "One day at a time" and we hope that you'll join us.

Dean

baggs7601 · Newbie

my bad, i thought this was a group of recovering addicts in MMT who fully understand opiate addiction and that MMT is the best and most effective treatment to overcome that terrible monkey. y'all just keep relapsing and one day i'll see you at the klinic!

peace,
baggs

DeanC · Guru

Baggs, hopefully we won't be attending your funeral first. When you get sick of being sick and are ready to get real, we'll see you in the rooms. We'll leave the light on for you brother.

AnthonyG · Senior Member

I have extensive experiance in meth and opiates baggs. We can talk if you want brother but Im warning you up front. Your not going to like what I say. Im praying you make it brother. And like Dean said..Hope we dont read about you.

baggs7601 · Newbie

"experiance" is spelled "experience" senior member! sorry for wasting y'alls time; i'll stick with the NAMA forum! please feel free to e-mail me any time if you need links that are full of acurate info on MMT (baggs7601@yahoo.com)

keep on keepin' on!
baggs

drugfree · Senior Member

hey baggs , opiates was my thing....and today i do not need anything not to use.... Narcotics annoymous is abstance from all drugs...... mmt which i extensively researched does have a high replase rate due to the fact that it only address the physiological aspect of addiction...... The problem lies in the psychological issues... what drives us to use , what is keeping up using looking for an escape... why can't we face everyday life without using something. i great quote is "the problem of drug abuse is not a problem of drugs, but a problem of life and people"

AnthonyG · Senior Member

Sorry bud..spell checks broke.. But then again , spelling is the least of your problems.

AnthonyG · Senior Member

Took the time to read up on NAMA . Best of luck to you.

What We Are NOT!

Working
to dispel the ignorance regarding MMT which plagues
both treatment professionals and the general public.

NAMA is not an organization of apologists for what passes for methadone maintenance treatment in the United States today. Most MMT programs do not even come close to practicing the treatment modality created by Drs Dole and Nyswander three decades ago, and even the best programs are severely hampered by senseless regulation and by the presence of staff oriented towards non-medical modalities. NAMA believes that only through education can methadone maintenance treatment fulfill its promise and again become the most effective, progressive, and humane treatment for opioid dependence.

Since its beginning over thirty years ago, methadone maintenance has proven to be the most effective treatment for opiate addiction, resulting in the termination of both drug use and criminal behavior. In spite of this success, methadone maintenance is often disparaged as a "substitute drug" by those who ignore the positive benefits it has brought to society. The media tends to focus on the negatives of methadone and none of the success stories.

These negative attitudes impair the effectiveness of methadone maintenance programs. Patients are mistreated, misinformed and stigmatized. They are victims of discrimination in health care, the job market, education, insurance, and housing. Even treatment professionals feel ashamed to admit they work in this field.

DeanC · Guru

some things to consider with "MMT"

What are methadone's adverse reactions?

Deaths occur more frequently at the beginning of treatment in methadone programs; they are usually a cause of excessive doses (i.e. erroneously estimated tolerance) and they are affected by concomitant diseases (hepatitis, pneumonia). Methadone generally entails the entire spectrum of opioid side effects, including the development of tolerance and physical and psychological dependence. Respiratory depressions are dangerous. The released histamines can cause hypotension or bronchospasms. Other symptoms are: constipation, nausea or vomiting, sedation, vertigo, edema.

What are the symptoms of methadone overdose?

Body as a whole
muscle spasticity
Respiratory
difficulty breathing
slow, shallow and labored breathing
stopped breathing (sometimes fatal within 2-4 hours)
Eyes, ears, nose and throat
pinpoint pupils
bluish skin
bluish fingernails and lips
Gastrointestinal
spasms of the stomach and/or intestinal tract
constipation
Heart and blood vessels
weak pulse
low blood pressure
Nervous system
drowsiness
disorientation
coma

What is methadone dependency?

As an opiate, regular use of methadone causes physical dependency - if you've been using it regularly (prescribed or not) once you stop you will experience a withdrawal. The physical changes due to the drug are similar to other opiates (like heroin); suppressed cough reflex, contracted pupils, drowsiness and constipation. Some methadone users feel sick when they first use the drug. If you are a woman using methadone you may not have regular periods - but you are still able to conceive. Methadone is a long-acting opioid; it has an effect for up to 36 hours (if you are using methadone you will not withdraw for this period) and can remain in your body for several days.

Personal stories of methadone withdrawal:

I've been on both ends of withdrawals, heroin and methadone, every patient of methadone will always tell you the same, as I do; I can kick heroin anytime, but methadone that is something else. In 15 yrs of heroin addiction, I've kicked 3 times, 'cold-turkey'. In 10 years on methadone I've never kicked methadone.

Once I landed in jail, I had to do 72 hours of jail time before I got to see the judge. I was literally on the floor screaming my guts out. About 12 hours before I was to see the judge, I demanded to be taken to the hospital, I just couldn't take it. I was cuffed, and looking like a 'chair' was glued to my back, I limped to the ambulance, since I couldn't lift my leg to climb into the back, the police grabbed me on both sides and shoved me in like a sack of potatoes, I fell flat on my face. The doctor, realizing my condition and that it was severe, gave me a shot of methadone. The relief was immediate.

I was returned to the precinct and 2 days later I was in the same condition! Never did I go through such hell in all my days.

The intensity of methadone withdrawal is just too much! I could never do it. By the way, about 5 years ago one inmate went into convulsions and upon falling, he hit the metal bars and died!

On Sunday morning, March 30, I took my last dose of methadone. I have been on 80 mgs of methadone for the past 6 months.

My doctor, an anesthesiologist, writes prescriptions for 125 tablets. This lasts 15 days. I signed a contract with him that basically says I will use the same pharmacy, I will not get meds from other physicians, and if I run out before the 15 days is up I just have to go without. I didn't mind signing the contract at all, and I have abided by all the stipulations. I called him for a refill on Friday. No response. I called again on Saturday. No response. I called his home on Sunday. No response. On Sunday I took my last dose. I hate anything having this much control over me. I find it very demeaning to be so dependent on a bottle of pills.

On Monday I called his office. They informed me that he was on vacation this week. Panic descended . . . and so did withdrawal symptoms. At first I just got kinda nervous, jittery. My doctor has told me that methadone is not addicting. That is contrary to everything and anything I've ever heard or read about the drug. I never questioned him why he thought methadone wasn't addicting. I was hoping I'd never have to find out. What my body went through for the next 48 hours was one severe blow after another. I kept trying to tell myself I just had the flu. Just crawl in bed for 3 days and sweat it out. Of course I knew this wasn't true but I was going to play whatever mind game it took to get me through this. After the jitters, the muscle contractures started. It felt like the muscles in my legs and then in my arms were like rubber bands, being stretched and pulled to their max and then constricting to a shape that wasn't natural. Then came the sweats, diarrhea, hallucinations.

I remember trying to dial the phone. It was a number I've called a thousand times before, only now I couldn't remember it. For that matter, I couldn't even hold the phone . . . I kept dropping it. My muscles were out of control. The pain that led me to methadone returned with a vengeance. In a strange way it was like an old friend. I knew it well and understood it completely. The combination of withdrawal and pain was too much. The all too familiar thoughts of suicide were returning.

It was now Tuesday morning. I called the pharmacist and explained the situation. By 1:10 PM I had 8 methadone tablets. I took the entire dose at once all 8 tablets. Within 2 hours my muscles had stopped screaming, my head was beginning to clear, and the pain was lessening.

It's now Thursday morning. I'm still not back to myself . . . but much better. The assault on my body was indeed very traumatic . . . I lost 7 pounds and am still very shaky. Addiction is indeed a dangerous thing and should be avoided. I must admit when I was in the throes of withdrawal there's not much I wouldn't have done to relieve the symptoms.

What are the dangers of methadone?

Following is an article by two doctors addressing this question.

Is methadone more likely to kill you than heroin?
By Drs Marcel Buster & Giel van Brussel, MD
Municipal Health Service Amsterdam

Based on literature and analysis of mortality figures Dr Russell Newcombe concluded that methadone programmes as a form of harm-reduction possibly cause more victims than they prevent. We have doubts whether the conclusion about methadone is fully justified. Looking at the mentioned literature gives a one-sided view at the problem. Moreover, the conclusions drawn are beyond those justified by the results of the analyses. Several points of debate come to mind:

Methadone is not an innocent substance; 'one's methadone maintenance dose is another's poison' (2). A regular user of opiates develops a certain tolerance. Therefore, it is possible that a tolerant person can function normally with dosages which can be fatal to a non-tolerant person. Also, methadone dosage in the case of first entry to the programme has to be evaluated carefully. It is wise to begin with a low dosage that has to be increased slowly in the course of weeks or even months. At entry to the programme it has to be carefully evaluated whether a patient has a clear and unambiguous heroin dependence. In methadone maintenance programmes, methadone is dispensed to tolerant persons, moreover, this tolerance remains high because of daily use of methadone. Therefore, it is not surprising that deaths at the King's College Hospital caused by methadone were not those of participants of a methadone maintenance programme but were those of 'recreational' users of illicit methadone.

In cases where more than one drug is used, the drug responsible for death due to overdose is difficult to establish. Moreover, the same drug prescribed by physicians can also be bought on the street. In seventy percent of the deaths due to overdose studied in Glasgow and Edinburgh a combination of different drugs was found (3).

Prescribed drugs such as temazepam were often encountered in deaths in Glasgow. However, among only 14 of the 34 persons who died in 1992 and where temazepam was found, this was prescribed by their physician. Because of the presence of other drugs it is not clear whether temazepam really caused the death of these people. Probably the combination of these different drugs was fatal to them. This was also the case with the methadone deaths in Edinburgh. However, in Edinburgh, the authors could not determine whether methadone was prescribed or not. Both Hammersley and Obafunwa report that heroin/morphine deaths seldom occur in Edinburgh (4). 'The fall of the deaths due to overdose in the Lothian and Borders Region of Scotland (LBRS) after 1984 reflects in part the strict policing that took place, in particular in the Edinburgh area'.

'The increase of methadone deaths is probably due to the introduction of a street trend to use this agent as a substitute to heroin'. The author suggests that methadone deaths are mainly caused by the use of illicit methadone.

Therefore, these figures suggest that participants of methadone programmes are at lower risk of death due to overdose. However, this does not mean that methadone is an innocent substance. The high and increasing number of methadone deaths in Britain is alarming and certainly needs more attention. The first priority should be to establish whether the methadone causing death has been prescribed within a methadone programme or bought on the street. It also should be evaluated at what point during the course of the methadone programme death takes place. Further instruction doctors prescribing methadone could be necessary. The use of non-prescribed methadone without medical supervision can lead to high risks, especially when it is used as a substitute for heroin in order to get a 'high' instead of to prevent withdrawal symptoms. Physicians have to be aware of this danger and they should make sure that the prescribed methadone (as well as other psycho-active drugs) does not end up in the 'grey market'.

AnthonyG · Senior Member

yep , yep and yep. its brutal.

DeanC · Guru

lmao that no one here understands opiate addiction/recovery. what does he think NA is, just recovering pot smokers?

*edit* not that there's anything wrong with that

-- Edited by DeanC on Saturday 2nd of May 2009 05:58:52 AM

AnthonyG · Senior Member

Pride , arrogance , self decit . delusion, There but for the grace of God , go I . I hope it works for him. Im stickin with what I see works for others. A program of complete abstinance . Fits me just as right as rain .

BigV · Senior Member

Not going to argue with you Brian if it's working for you and your lifes improved then it's helping, though many will disagree with you on this matter , and I hope that's ok just stay open minded to other ideas.

I have heard, never been on methadone myself , it's very addictive and its hard to kick ?

This program is an abstinence program from all drugs so maybe it's not for you, that's ok that's what other programs are for to fit each individuals needs.

If it doesn't end up working for you you know there are other programs to try, open invite right here in NA.

Keep coming back

LeeU · Guru

Hi all...Last night I wrote a reply, then deleted it, wrote another one, and deleted that one. Why? I am sad to say because, under the surface desire to avoid controversy, I was fearful. Why? Because this is such a touchy subject and I hate conflict and don't want to be on the receiving end of what SEEMS to me to be almost hostility regarding methadone maintenance.

But, in 26 years of clean time & NA I have never come to terms with the extreme lack of tolerance for this modality of treatment.

Treatment and "recovery" are not mutually exclusive just because the treatment may include a pharmacological element...IF-IF-IF-IF that element is well monitored by specialists with expertise and training in applying state-of-the-art addiction treatment protocols.

Now, is that the case with the vast majority of methadone maintenance programs in this country? NO...unfortunately most clinics, especially publically-funded programs, are years behind the current science and advanced technology, and they use a one-fits-all approach with very little individualized assessment, pro-active monitoring, and finely-tuned dosing.

But that does not negate the fact that for some people MMT, done right, is truly the lifesaver that enables then to have ANY degree of functional recovery at all. I was absolutely NOT a believer in this..not as a recovering addict and not as an addiction treatment professional. But after a stint in a teaching hospital with a specialized program under NIDA research-to-practice grants, using specialized MMT on the most "difficult" "cases", eventually I came to see the value...on the life-saving level. It's still an unpopular stance, but I have to stand by it after getting educated.

I remember when many in AA and NA would vigorously tell folks on psychotropics that they suggested they should get off all meds and fire their physicians. Folks with bipolar would stop taking their Lithium, with very bad outcomes. Folks with schizophrenia would take that suggestion and deteriorate to total non-functionality. Folks on anti-depressants would become suicidal and commit suicide. Eventually, 12 steppers came to see that not everyone on an antidepressant was a bored housewife playing with mood-altering pills.

Today, educated 12 steppers either say nothing or direct folks back to their doctors, advising only that the person be sure the doc is well-trained and educated about addiction and recovery, as well as mental illness and recovery.

To my mind, painting everyone on MMT with the same brush may do a disservice to those who are truely doing the best they can with what they've got to work with. If a person is genuinely seeking to improve his or her life by incorporating a 12 step program, how helpful is it to imply (which is what I picked up on) that maybe you can't join the club-- don't "belong" -- with us who have been fortunate enough to get and stay completely drug-free.

I guess I didn't get much of a sense of balance between the abstinence only message and the tolerance needed to not risk driving soemone away. If I am wrong in that, and have misread the "tone" in this thread, I do apologise!! (Hence the fear in posting!!!! LOL...if I am wrong, please be gentle! If I have called it correctly, maybe just give it some thought.

BigV · Senior Member

This program is an abstinence program from all drugs

Guess I should have worded my response differently Lee, I didn't necessarily mean ALL DRUGS because I am not against prescribed drugs if needed for the therapeutic values they were intended for and are taken AS PRESCRIBED by a knowledgeable doctor who knows his/her patience conditions as far as ones addiction goes hmm

did I get that right LOL?

DeanC · Guru

Lee, that's a fairly well thought out post. unfortunately you didn't read this thread that well. 1st, tolerance and an invitation were extended to this new member who, according to him, was in here by mistake. The intolerance and hostility was his with arrogance. If you check my posts, they were also well thought out and informative, and encouraging, and included a disclaimer for prescribed anitdepressents etc...

It's true that there are a lot of addicts that aren't capable of working a 12 step program and for them, maybe an MMT program is better than the alternative, but calling yourself "CLEAN" on mmt is a ****ing joke and bad one at that. And I have a hard time with the term "Recovery" with regards to MMT as well. It's a maintainance program that keeps the addict addicted and maintains a more consistently average degree of opiate saturation, keeping the addict off the street, which is probably a good thing, but why not make a 12 step program part of that process and hopefully lead the addict toward Recovery?

-- Edited by DeanC on Saturday 2nd of May 2009 09:14:59 PM

Blithe Spirit · Veteran Member

I'd like to add that "the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop using." It doesn't mean that a person must be abstinent to become a member of NA or to attend meetings, but that abstinence must be desired. Therefore, we do (and should) welcome those doing drug replacement treatment and they can be members of NA *if* they have a desire to stop using. After all, it is a "program of complete abstinence from all drugs."

Having said that, I don't think we are living by spiritual principles when we judge a person and his/her choices. People find many paths that help them in their lives. NA is most certainly not the one and only way to a better life.

In this particular case, it appears that Brian does not have a desire to stop using his drug replacement. This is his choice. He reports, however, that his life is greatly improved. Good for him! His path may not be not our path and yet he appeared in our lives for a brief moment. Instead of trying to slam him with the "we're right and you're wrong" attitude, why not demonstrate some compassion and acceptance. This is a program of attraction not of beating someone over the head with our beliefs.

I want to wish Brian all the best on his journey. I hope any future encounter with NA is a positive one!

(For further information on drug replacement therapy, see Bulletin #29 "Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs" at http://www.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull29)

AnthonyG · Senior Member

All of us have an obligation to be honest. I dont think we can think that because we dont agree we are therefore hostile.
Its MY OPINION that methadone is a complete scam..Its hell to get off of and relapse rates are through the roof. Like many drugs , methadone treats a symptom . Its does nothing for the underlying nature of addicts. Drug companies are making a mint along with Drs and research facilities.
The case that pushed me over the edge was a young man. 35 years old who was on mmp for TEN YEARS..thats capped because its so unbelievable. He was being weaned off finally and 36 hours after his last treatment he relapsed and ODed.
For me I dont care how its sliced and diced. Thats just wrong !!!

Keeping our brothers and sisters strung out and calling it treatment is outlandish and should possibly be criminal.

I first used heroin in 1980. I kicked several times in order to pass drug tests. Once the test was done I started right back up. Went to mmt in 1992 during a bad point in my first marraige. I left my home with my kids and moved to another state. Also leaving behind my mmt. Never in my life have I been in so much pain for so long. It was a solid 6 weeks before I could even stand erect . By that time I have found a new connect. Bottom line kicking heroin is a cakewalk next to kicking methadone.

dan h · Senior Member

The following is an excerpt from the World Service Board of Trustees Bulletin #29. It reads, in part:

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups' purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous. It may be argued that a group's autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That's our program; it's what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.

Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

-- Edited by dan h on Sunday 3rd of May 2009 02:38:16 AM

BigV · Senior Member

No ones said Brian isn't welcome here so lets get that straight right off.

Theres no reason he can't take whats been shared here as something positive and something helpful, experience here goes a long long ways so I hope he takes that rather then just opinions.

HE's a member when he says so.

The idea of complete absitinence isn't for everyone, sometimes people hang onto a little something to get them by, theres a lot of pot maintenance going on in the rooms of NA i'm sure, maybe even some alcohol maintenance, we can make a lot of good sounding excuses for ourselves.

Did you happen to read that bulletin completly Blithe ?

Our program approaches recovery
from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the
substitution of one drug for another. That's our program;
it's what we offer the addict who still suffers

I am powerless over my addicton any mind and mood altering drug I am powerless over that's my personal experience with Vini, that much I can share and I have no other opinion on this matter other then to say that we should not condone nor condemn, we should have no opinion period on MMT we should support addicts to strive for complete abstinence just like the bulleting says towards the end and I think some of the threads here have sent that very message.

Thanks everyone for sharing

-- Edited by BigV on Sunday 3rd of May 2009 05:46:36 AM

DeanC · Guru

AnthonyG wrote:

All of us have an obligation to be honest. I dont think we can think that because we dont agree we are therefore hostile.

Anthony, women tend to equate disagreement with hostility or "meanness". I think that they tend to read what they want to read as well

, and neither commented on Brain's hostile comments "keep on relapsing and we'll see you at the klinic" (sp. clinic). How about some intellectual honesty

. I congratulated him for his progress and suggested he go further and look toward total abstinence, which is supported by the publication that Dan posted (Thanks Dan).

-- Edited by DeanC on Sunday 3rd of May 2009 07:40:10 AM

LeeU · Guru

Oh good golly miz molly!! I think maybe Dean hit it on the head...me female, me touchy! LMAO

Glad this turned into a good dialogue.

For what it's worth, tho, while research may indeed generate funds for researchers and their associated facilities, without applied knowledge of the brain science of addiction, we'll be left in the dust (and the jails, and the instututions, and on the street) as just a bunch of weak-willed, personality-distorted, criminally-minded, lazy low-lifes. I know you know what I'm talking about!

While other life-threatening conditions are getting the serious attention and the serious funding, as well as adequate insurance coverage, real progress in treating addiction has slowed and good treatment is getting more and more scarce. That bothers me. There "should be" no reason why NA and good treatment (not crappy treatment..there is a difference!!) can't co-exist and be mutually beneficial to the addict who still suffers, and to our society as a whole.

It is inhumane how many addicts are in prisons because we (as a culture) insist on remaining in the dark ages regarding this disease!!! In my state, 80% of people in prison are addicts, alcoholics, and mentally ill. There are 3 court diversion programs and treatment is scarce. NA is pretty scarce in many areas of the state as well, which doesn't help. It's very frustrating to see, having been exposed to so much better in other states.

Rant of the day...thanks for listening! But, back to basics: I'm clean & sober today, I thank my higher power for that, and y'all as well, and I probably just need some coffee!!

AnthonyG · Senior Member

Nice Lee.. We can all agree that through the grace of a power greater than ourselves and NA we are clean today.

Thank God we can even have this discussion.

One last quick jab on account of Im a sick muther fooker and im still healing.

Greace is spelled grease. biggrin

Thats it, MY rant is over. I love all of you and Baggs too.

Hemi · Member

The main reason I transfered to this message board instead of WSM (we speak methadone or NAMA) is its recovery based and the other is I just couldn't stand reading the posts of people in MMT (like myself but soon to be off) moaning and whining about the clincs etc.
To answer Baggs question (even though it looks like he's gone) I personally don't think there is any dose that will stop one's cravings depending on the persons mindset. Here in New Zealand all the people I know on MD abuse it (it is injectable in this country) and the amounts people get up to are ridiculous. This is why I never went over a 100mgs because I new that if I was on 100 or 1000 the only difference was how hard it would be when I wanted to get off and what the WD's would be like if I had to go without.
The other thing that bugged me at WSM was people talking about going into WD's 4 hous after dosing because they wern't 'on enough' and others missing a day for whatever reason and saying they were on the floor vomiting and shaking, blah blah. Now this stuff is stong, it has a half life of 24hrs so anyone on it should be able to go a day without it no problem. Once when I went away on a trip the clinic didn't fax my script through and as it was a public holiday I had to go 4 days without any MD. The worst part of it was no sleep, a little anxiety and a few muscle aches. And if I got offf my butt and went for a walk and got the blood flowing I felt ok. Not great, but not terrible either. So these people saying they are 'dying' after a day really get my goat. Anyway each to their own, I just had to get that off my chest.
I can't wait to get off the stuff. I have an appointment at the clinic tomorrow to talk about 'Suboxone' which is relatively new in NZ and supposed to make the WD's milder. ButI think I'm just going to taper down and then with the support of NA, hot baths, and good food I will just suffer through the worst of it. I look foward to reporting in when I'm off.

-- Edited by Hemi on Tuesday 5th of May 2009 07:38:42 PM

-- Edited by Hemi on Tuesday 5th of May 2009 07:40:31 PM

-- Edited by Hemi on Tuesday 5th of May 2009 07:41:12 PM

DeanC · Guru

Keep posting until you do Hemi. Thanks for the additional information on MD. It will help someone when they search the archives. Have you got a "Basic text" of NA to read?

Dean

Hemi · Member

Sure do, Basic text, Daily readings. I actually get the daily readings sent to my computer so when I get to work in the morning its the first thing I read.

DeanC · Guru

Awesome! Wow, you're already at work tomorrow.

-- Edited by DeanC on Tuesday 5th of May 2009 09:31:56 PM

Tahir · Member

Hey thank you all for participating here, interesting... I believe that NA could also be the place of hope and freedom for many addicts who are on Methadone-Maintenance, in the longer run, like it has come to be for Hemi

In my hometown here in India, half of the NA fellowship came through the substitution-therapy program of a few day-care clinics, where they give Buprenorphine for Heroine users. I have many friends in NA who've been part of this program for months, even years, before coming to recovery in NA, the total-abstinence way... I guess over time, many of us realize that being functional with a job and all is not enough, that there's still something lacking in our recovery, that's when we open our minds to NA, the inside job, looking deep into ourselves, our thoughts, emotions, attitudes, behavior, relationships etc, to understand finally that that's where our problem lies, and that's where change is needed... at least that's how it was for me after being on Lithium, Prozac etc for a few years... When I saw that addicts (seriously sick ones at that as compared to me) were able to live their lives fully without having to use any chemical substance in NA, I knew it could be done, and I did not want to settle for anything less than that, living a chemical-free life, I wanted that. I came to believe in this miracle, and today I live it which is unbelievable if I recollect where I come from...

Now I did not abruptly stop my medication... I expressed my desire to make it clean like the NA addicts to my Counselor and Psychiatrist in an assertive way, and worked in co-operation with them towards tapering and stopping my meds, as a process... They supported me through it. Also, going without meds (I was diagnosed with Bipolar and Anxiety/panic disorder) meant I made a decision to face my depression and any possible anxiety attacks. I did not have to do this alone. I had the support of the NA fellowship, my Sponsor at that time, my family and most importantly even my Counselor and Psychiatrist... And of course, the principles contained in the Steps and my faith in my Higher Power's omnipotence carried me through... IT IS POSSIBLE! I say this not because it's clinically proven or because a great Psychologist/healer says so in a best-selling book... I live it, by the grace of my Higher Power's love and care and with the help of the NA Program...

Hemi · Member

Regarding the right to share at meetings while on MMT. Like it said above. It's down to each individual group. At the meetings I attend everyone is aware I am on MMT and has no problem with me sharing as long as I'm open and honest. to me its not whether they share but what they share. Iv'e always looked at it as a guideline to stop people who are 'stoned' or whatever rambling away about using and 'glorifying drugs'.
I always cringe and want to shrink into my seat when they have the cleantime countdown. ha ha. I would always be "mumble mumble.... methadone" untill one day someone at the meeting said "just say your clean for today; you're at a meeting for the right reason and your getting lown on the MMT so I have no problem with it" and everyone else supported it too. We have really good fellowship at my hometown in New Zealand. I feel pretty lucky.

Tahir · Member

That's refreshingly delightful to hear Hemi, it must be a very loving and caring fellowship indeed back there in NZ...

LeeU · Guru

Hi all...I'm really enjoying this dicussion thread and everyone's ESH. I have a personal interest in any emerging treatment technologies and the newer research-to-practice efforts. I'm interested in anyone's personal experience with suboxone, if you're also seeking abstinence and a life of recovery as the end result, if you are willing to share on that. Feel free to email me directly on this subject. I am a grateful addict/alcoholic with long-term clean time and a former treatment professional. zumagurl@hotmail.com Thanks. I'm also interested in any newer approaches to relapse prevention that have a neurological or nutritional component, including any experience with elements of Eastern meditation/wholistic or naturapathic medicine etc. as a tool for maintaining quality recovery along with practicing/living the 12 steps.

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