12 steps in 5 minutes is, I'm sorry, ludicrous. Oh, maybe we can get a surface grip on what they mean but a stepworking process is one of uncovering, revelation, learning, changing, applying spiritual principles, identifying patterns in our lives, making lists of amends needed to make, making amends, working on an improved contact with a higher power.

The AA steps are already what I refer to as "microwave recovery" and the people I've taken on as sponsees who came from AA are CLUELESS as to the real depth of the steps and have NO idea as to how one applies them in their lives. No smack talk about AA... Thank God for it but this addict needed something a little more intensive in order to understand my disease and to begin the process of change required for recovery.

That said, thank for sharing!

Hi and Welcome and here is where your going to get a lesson in higher power your video and understanding of step 2&3 are incorrect in my humble opinion.


This is what out 2nd step literature says on step 2

Ask yourself this question: Do I believe it would be insane to walk up to someone and say, "May I please have a heart attack or a fatal accident?" If you can agree that this would be an insane thing, you should have no problem with the Second Step.


The next paragraph and this is the one I usually high light to newcomers who have difficulty with the higher power greater power concept,

The process of coming to believe is something that we seem to experience in similar ways. One thing most of us lacked was a working relationship with a Higher Power. We begin to develop this relationship by simply admitting to the possibility of a Power greater than ourselves. Most of us have no trouble admitting that addiction had become a destructive force in our lives. Our best efforts resulted in ever greater destruction and despair. At some point we realized we needed the help of some Power greater than our addiction. Our understanding of a Higher Power is up to us. No one is going to decide for us. We can call it the group, the program, or we can call it God. The only suggested guidelines are that this Power be loving, caring and greater than ourselves. We don't have to be religious to accept this idea. The point is that we open our minds to believe. We may have difficulty with this, but by keeping an open mind, sooner or later, we find the help we need.


Step 3 here in NA we say something like this, "A God of YOUR understanding"


For all addicts, the day comes when there is no longer a choice; we had to use. Having given our will and lives to our addiction, in utter desperation we looked for another way. In Narcotics Anonymous, we decide to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand Him. This is a giant step. We don't have to be religious; anyone can take it. All that is required is willingness. All that is essential is that we open the door to a Power greater than ourselves.

Our concept of God comes not from dogma but from what we believe ourselves, what works for us. Many of us understand God to be simply whatever keeps us clean. The right to a God of your understanding is total and without any catches. Because we have this right, it is necessary to be honest about our belief if we are to grow spiritually.


Ok so what I believe is that a person who is atheist or agnostic can still get the same benefit that a believer in an actually living deity can get.


The only reason a person might turn away is from a lack of willingness or open mindedness which are essential spiritual conditions for recovery. Is this a religous program ? for some yes is it a spiritual program YES for all who use this program that way it is lined out to be used will definetly use spirituality.


I loved what you said on steps 10 & 11 .

David you did a wonderful job in just 5 minutes thanks so much i hope everyone watchs and leaves comments they have and thoughts.


Vini

Jana40503 wrote:

---

The AA steps are already what I refer to as "microwave recovery" and the people I've taken on as sponsees who came from AA are CLUELESS as to the real depth of the steps and have NO idea as to how one applies them in their lives.

---

Hmm...  microwave recovery?  I wonder  why there are exponentially more old timers in AA then. 

 

Ha,ha,ha,,
 
We had instant cooking books,
instant fitness# 
instant marketing 
instant success,,,etcetc 
and now we have,,lo and behold,,, instant recovery !! 

Someone  needs to be reading the secong Step as= 

2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity 
     (INSTANTLY)...

-- Edited by Raman at 06:29, 2009-02-24

BigV wrote:

---

cuzz they been around since god made dirt Dean LOL ok maybe not that long lets just say since Bill n Bob got touched by God

---

I knew that was coming .  Actuall Jana is sorta correct in that no one 12step group is going to solve all your problems, just the one that that group focuses on.  They have to because if you don't docus directly on your substanse abuse issues, you'll never get around to working on other issues.    Both AA and NA  don't deal with relationships or parental issues very well.  Bill W and Dr. Bob wrote that other work outside of AA must done, and they were always looking for ways for AAs to be all that they could be.  Imho, all NA/AAs  should do some work in Codependents anonymous, some more than others, but we're All codependents to one extent or another. 

Dean 

 

-- Edited by DeanC at 10:31, 2009-02-24

To be honest, after watching the guys presentation, he was only trying to explain the 12 steps in 5 minutes not actually work them. I thought that he did a pretty good job for someone who'd never done them. I did take exception to the comments about religious program, and how an atheist or agnostic would leave at step two.
Hell most of the people (Us) that come to these rooms are agnostic or atheists. I still believed in a Higher power, I just didn't think that He/She had any power in my life. Turns out that it was my will blocking HP's efforts.

Dean

-- Edited by DeanC at 10:57, 2009-02-24

a ten-minute stepwork is possible in NA, by using the "Living The Program" IP as the daily inventory, at the end of each day

That being said, I was able to make sense and truly benefit out of the Living The Program IP only after I had gone through stepwork with my Sponsor at least once, and after having picked up the tools of each step for daily application no doubt...

Hey everybody... Im sorry,,I owe David an apology. 

I think he is a very wonderful human being. He isnt saying anything about recovery being a five minute possiblity. Hes just saying what he wants to say in 5 minutes. 

I wish I had watched the video first and then commented. But I was reacting with anoter post here,,wrong move.

I am wrong,,I admit it,,please do not take it to heart David. 

God knows that many,many addicts worldwdie came into NA through the caring and help from those such as you. If i had to take a wild,unsupported guess,,Id estimate that your video will give many  the message that there is a Fellowship called NA and that recovery from addictioon is a reality here !!! 

God Bless you.

-- Edited by Raman at 20:51, 2009-02-24

Here's the link to the "Living The Program" IP if someone would like to try it on a daily basis...

http://www.na.org/pdf/litfiles/us_english/IP/EN3109.pdf

Jana40503 wrote:

---

"I stand by my assertions... Sorry."

 

I'll bet


"I think a lot of people have achieved long term sobriety in AA because they could relate to the problem being alcohol."

 

That's just BS plain and simple.  The 12 steps are about personal change, not hiding behind alcohol (or drugs) as the problem.  You really need to read the big book and the 12 &12 before making ludacris assumptions.

 

"I've known many people who got sober in AA... Did 12 steps in 30 days."

 

Maybe in a 90 day treatment center in 90 days (which is not AA)  I've never known anyone that did 12 steps in 30 days (or less than a year for that matter), I don't even think it's possible. This is a gross exageration at best.

"Those people, at say 6 months clean, really had no deep understanding, and certainly no practical application, of the steps or the principles. I've seen some of them get 6 months sober, work all 12 AA steps and then switch to NA and begin sponsoring people..."

 

And What principles are you practising right now? Refer to my previous comments

 

"No offense intended"

 

This has to be the biggest copout of all

Jana,  why do you feel the need to talk trash about AA?  At the very least, if you really feel this way, and knowing that AA members read this board (myself for one), keep your feelings to yourself.  What porpuse does sharing these kinds of negative feelings serve?

---

 

-- Edited by DeanC at 18:14, 2009-02-25

-- Edited by DeanC at 19:19, 2009-02-25

Dean, Dean, Dean... I do NOT trash talk AA! AA was the first fellowship I was introduced to. I've read the BB, several times and I LOVE it. It's a great book! I refer to it often in working with my sponsees once they've been around long enough to understand the inherent differences in the programs.

As I said, I think NA was the result of more being revealed between 1939 and 1953 about the disease of addiction which is also the disease of alcoholism. AA wasn't the fellowship for me. It's focus was too narrow for me and that's what I meant about why so many have likely acheived long term sobriety in AA... They could initially relate to alcohol being the problem and stuck around long enough to have more revealed to them. NA is the only fellowship that doesn't build the first step around a particular substance or behavior... That was how I came to understand that it doesn't matter, for me, whether it's pizza, cocaine or shoes... I'm obsessive, compulsive and self centered... An addict!

I don't portray myself as an expert on AA... I'm not. I can only share my experience with AA'ers in NA and I've seen many come over to NA, having "worked the steps" in AA, with a sponsor, in a matter of a month or two. I have a sponsee now who came from AA, with 16 months clean, and virtually no real understanding of the steps and I am familiar with many like her... Perhaps a reflection on their sponsors, not the program of AA. I also know of 3 guys who did steps in AA and were sponsoring in NA with 6 months clean. These comments aren't meant to be representative of AA, only MY experience.  I had a sponsor, who was sober 19 years in AA before coming to NA.  I asked her to sponsor me because of her spiritual centeredness... She had what I wanted in that area.  She told me she thought a lot of people relapsed in NA because it took so long to get thru a 3rd step in the flat book.  She thought it was a good thing that the 12 steps in AA could be worked quickly.  I disagreed.  She didn't get all pissy! 

This wasn't meant to be a discussion about AA anyway but rather about this guys video, the steps in 5 minutes. As I said, he did no more than someone who can read and comprehend basic English in providing an overview of the steps and it was also rife with misinformation and missing information. The assertion that athiests and agnostics would be turned away, he didnt talk about the 4th step inventorying assets as well as liabilities. I just don't think he did a very good job and I don't think he educated himself before getting in front of a camera.

I don't hate AA... Not at all. AA is our predecessor! I don't think AA, or at least the members, did as good a job of laying out the steps and asking the probing questions as NA has with the advent of the "flat book". I firmly believe we have learned more, and continue to understand more about our disease.

-- Edited by Jana40503 at 23:53, 2009-02-25

Just my $0.02, meaning, my limited personal experiences, and the understanding I managed to gather till now with the help of the collective experience contained in our NA literature

I did my first Fourth under the guidance of an AA member when I went in to an After Care Center for the third time in span of 2 years after multiple relapses. This AA member used to come there as a voluntary staff, to work with chronic relapsers like me, using the 12 Steps approach. The Fourth Step guide that he gave me to work with was so extensive and long, covering everything that happened to me from the time I was a toddler... lol... till the present... it would have taken more than a year for me to write if I was not in that After Care Center for 3 months where I could dedicate myself to writing my Fourth fulltime, almost all the time... I'm so grateful to this experience, for the first time I wrote it all, everything that happened in my life that I could remember, writing down all my bitterness about my past, the secrets, the resentments, my fear, the confusion, experiences with family, friends, other people, places, situations, institutions, organizations, communities, law, society, my thoughts, my feelings, my behavior, my attitude... Having done this first helped me a lot to do my NA Fourth Step the second time around with my NA Sponsor. I felt that there was not much reservation or fear to write it all again, there was less emotional attachment to the past events while doing it the second time, and everything became more clear. So in a way my AA Fourth did facilitate my NA Fourth a lot...

Also, NA suggests that there is perhaps only one inappropriate way to work the Steps - alone. I have worked on 2 different formats/guides with 2 different NA Sponsors in my first 4 years of recovery, and I'm set to work the Steps again with my current Sponsor, again, using a different guide/method. So, no matter what the approach is, I believe It Works, if worked under the guidance of a Sponsor. Our collective wisdom as expressed in our literature in NA also expresses that the NA books themselves are merely a guide to working the Steps, they do not contain recovery as such. Recovery is contained more in the personal experiences of a member working the Steps.

In my home area fellowship here in Bangalore, there is a method of guiding through the Steps that is followed by a few Sponsors - take a Sponsee through the Step Working Guides questions and answers, finish the process in a month or so. At first, I thought that that might not work. Then, when I interacted with these Sponsor members and asked about it, I came to know that they take the Sponsee through the writing part in a month completing the SWG and then guide over the process of learning to apply the Steps in daily life as they journey together the path of recovery with their Sponsees. And the most important part here is that It Works. Many members have worked the Steps this way in my area, and are doing good in recovery. All this has clearly shown me that it's not which guide or format which insures a "successful" or "right" way of Stepwork. It's more the sharing of experience, strength and hope that happens between the Sponsor and Sponsee while going through the process of stepwork together, it's the feeling of the process where this stepworking process eases me into a whole new way of life, opening up an entirely different spiritual reality... Today, I do not focus much on what method/guide/format one uses to work the Steps or how different or similar it is to the way I work them. My concern for my other friends in the fellowship if I'm allowed/permitted to express my concern by them that is, is usually more about if they are working the steps with a Sponsor.

And again, not sure why Dean is so offended and angry with me. This thread was about a 5 minute video, alleged by it's maker to take one through the steps in "5 minutes or less" and I think he did a crappy job. I'm allowed to think that, right? He clearly didn't read the literature very thoroughly, he misinformed in several areas and skipped over important information in others. I would certainly not send a newcomer there for an "overview" of the steps. I think as an experienced member of a 12 step fellowship, any of us could do a better job.

Jana40503 wrote:

---

"but it gave me an opportunity to practice LIVING and APPLYING the step I'd just worked before moving on to the next."

I'm going to take the high road here instead of comparing our quality of life, as a result of our sobriety, which to me is the proof of the pudding

" To LIVE the steps is the goal and I know lots of people from both fellowships who do just that but I have seen many newcomers move over from AA to NA claiming to have worked the 12 steps in AA in six months or less, ready to sponsor. This may be because I attend a meeting that shares a clubhouse with AA groups... For this reason I have a lot of exposure to both fellowships. Maybe Dean thinks I'm exaggerating because I don't have contact with a lot of AA'ers but I do and I love them. I sometimes think newcomer addicts, who find AA in treatment and then end up in NA have been done a disservice, not by AA but by their sponsors, when they've done the step dash in under 180 days."

 

Notice that you changed 30 days to 180 lmao

---

Jana you're a x-AAer, who is obviously discontent about AA, because it didn't work for you, and have been in contact with a few  other AA dropouts, that came to NA.
Trouble is that your using anecdotal evidence to support your "knowledge" about AA
gathered from discontents.  How do you expect this (and your own jaded experience)  to portray an accurate assessment of AA?  And why make general deragatory statements and then turn around and say how much you "love and respect" AA and wonder why someone might be offended?

 

-- Edited by DeanC at 10:32, 2009-02-26

I just read all my posts... I did say I saw the AA steps as "microwave recovery" and I misspoke. The steps are the steps. I've seen a number of people work the steps as if they were a microwave program... The NA flat book, I think, has given the depth due the steps.

Jana, I'm done with this discussion, no arguements here. All I did was ask a couple questions.

Ok,,we cannot generalize here but here is a viewpoint I have= 
The chap was most probably saying that atheists are turned away from recovery when they come to Step Two. because that is the general trend in America..

A read on what these following sites have to say may throw light on the issue. http://atheistnexus.org/group/atheistsin12steprecovery www.positiveatheism.org/rw/naway99. http://www.recoveryworld.com/ 

It seems to be a statistically true, in the USA at least ,that atheists are not comfortable in recovery halls where they have to hear constantly that God is the only answer. Why now,,isnt it true that most of us believe in service being a power greater than ourselves and isnt that a abstract,non-diefied Principle ? Isnt this a very secular Percept ? Just the thing atheists are all about ? 
The underpinning of the Service Concepts in NA comes from the Principle of 
"doing the right thing for the right reason", and dosent even remotely refer to God.

NA gives an addict like me,,the right to a God of my understanding which is total and without any catches. Which is also meant as the right to believe in a God or not is also the individual addicts right. 

Most of all,,Id like to note that by posting his views on AA, how did David affect this site ? Basically this is NA recovery here and if anyone had to address grievances to/about  David it should have been done via the AA site,. However as many of us here,,me included owe AA a debt of gratitude. Therefore it dosent seem correct for AA to be argued about here. 

That said and done,,we will also have to grant members the right to disagree. That however has to be done appropriately; i.e. as the Textt says
"WE CAN DISAGREE WITHOUT BEING DISAGREABLE".
 
Thanks for letting me share !!!! 
raman an addict,c;lean and serene just for today,,

-- Edited by Raman at 16:19, 2009-02-26

Yes Jana,,,Im afraid that after reading the chaps post at the head here,, we have to concede you a point.
If nothing else,he asked for it,as you rightly say.

Youre a fine woman Jana,,if I may say so. I need to have you here on a long term basis.
Ive read some fine insights from you,,keep em a coming.

I appreciate your efforts in reaching out to Dean. Hes a fine man and without rtying to defend his position, I know h is a man of great integrity,and has always shared well thought out and referred responses.

God bless the two of you,,I need yall to stay here and post.

However we all need to grow,and one of the best things in my own experience for that is the partaking of balanced arguement.

Lets all remember that there are no rights or wrongs,,as long as we've stayed clean,we are doing something right.

Well,,its 10.40 at nite here in Sheffield.
Ive done some studies, eaten dinner and now going for a 2 mile walk and gas heater top-up at the gas station.
Goodnit yall,,sweet dreams and God Bless all the addicts,,here and wherever they maybe !

Jeeze Louise!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for not making me lock this thread HEH HEH

Peace out, if we were all the same with teh same opinions we'd all be the same AND BOR ING!!!

Once again a difference.
What they do in a treatment centre and what happens in an AA meeting is completely different.

I suppose,going by my experience of centres,,what they want to do is see we have a basic understanding if the Steps. In this lies the implication that those that are really interested inn recovery will find sponsors or guides to do the Steps in more detail when theyre out.

It is incorrect therefore to generalize what happens in a treatment centre as being true for AA as a whole.

I read the chaps post once again,, and Im reminded that waht was being asked is opinion on the bloody video itself; and certainly not on what we think of AA.