Wow,

Thanks for writing this. I was like this I found one person who believed in me. You have to look at who you are hanging around with. When I was hanging with the gossips no one wanted to be around me either. When I had to reach out this last time after the relapse I reached toward some of the men that had a real good recovery and hung with them. Once the women saw who I was hanging out around they started flocking towards me. I had to learn not to go to the same damn meetings every day, I had to switch and you know what has happened since then. I have grown my network, I call people several times a day. I have right now 25 wonderful days clean. I go to meetings 2x a day, changed my outlook on life, and became positive not negative, working on somestuff now that I wasn't doing before. I also took some suggestions I find the people who want to hang out after the meetings. It is cold out now I tell them hey it is cold out lets go and get coffee and continue this meeting where it is warmer now. I had 15 people to talk to after my meeting last night. Then fiday night I did service work and people flocked. Do something to get out of yourself help set that meeting up, help to break the meeting down, be a group discussion leader like I was on Friday night. Give those chips out. This is what I am doing differently this time around. Before I refused to do any service at all. Now I pick people up to go to meetings and take them home. Go to more meetings enjoy the life you have now. I hope this doesn't sound crazy or too much but this is what I did to grow myself out of myself. Now newcomers ask me for my number awesome baby! I also don't share unless it is something I have complete understanding on. Like I am dealing with my mom's death I can share the hell out of that now. My sponsor told my sponsee sister to hang with me and learn how I do this thing and she likes that I don't share at meetings all the time. Only when I am in a lot of pain in my life. I know she can't help me with it also. Listen to hear and hear to listen with your heart! feel the emotions of someone elses pain. Also, call your network on a daily basis I have one lady in my network I am constantly calling her to death. She has 23 years clean and is awesome. Also, I have one guy in my network we talk on a daily sometimes 2-5 times a day. He thinks my thinking is crazy which most of the time it is. I told him I had 10 sponsors, he said great you need to just choose 1. I said 1 is never enough and 1,000 is way too many. Re read yesterdays Just for Today meditation it really talked about isolation to connection and I was like wow that is awesome. I can't believe how connected I am in a way. Get to know your sponsorship family and your sponsor. Your sponsor should introduce you to people in the fellowship also.

thank you for your input...

-- Edited by MARY MARGARET at 13:31, 2009-01-25

Ive always been interested in meeting new people in NA.
Then I also spend time at "meeting after meetings" in cafes,diners etc.
Had afew games of pool and snooker with the boys .
The mainstay of my Fellowshipping has een sharing recovery when driving around,,
I once drove dorve my Jeep 5000 miles up and down to a foreign country for a Convention.
That set of recoverimng addicts and I will never forget the experience.
Year before last was a high point,, a total of aout 15000 miles that year driving to and from recovery meetings,Conventions ,outreach !!
It Works !!
Ive stayed clean and for the large part serene.

Yes Caption,,yes....
Theres reference in the Basic Text=
An addict with one day clean is saying to another newcomer
" a day clean is a day won"
Thats the message itself !!

Oh God,,hi Dale. My God its u Dale how u doing  ??? 


 Ive sent u a members email id in the other topic,

Let me say im real glad to meet an old friend. I wonder what happened to MBM. I know that Geoff in Chinas email id is= rangeelageoff@gmail.com.
 
Hope hes still there ! Best of NA luck to you. Lately Ive been in England doing a dream,,,my masters. Great  meetings and Fellowship and driving here too.

I return to Sheffield and the cold after a two week hoilday with my daughter and my mother here in Bangalore.Jeff.G was mainly responsible for running it but aftter his death last year it went into cold storage. 

Hugs again Dale,, 





-- Edited by Raman at 19:06, 2009-01-26

Wow. Quit crying. Try READING the big book. Tell me where it says to take 6 months to get to step 2. In 6 months you should have BEEN on the twelfth step for quite some time. Oh and by the way it says it's a book of thousands of people who have RECOVERED. Whoever tells you you're always recovering isn't reading out of the big book.
Caption Closed:  I guess the thing that bothers me is this....what big book?  Are you talking about the NA Basic Text?  Just wondering.  It appears you have made a judgement about another person's recovery; not to mention the criticism I felt when I read your post to a six-month old member, just a baby yet!  May I ask what step YOU are on?  Ease up on the newcomers my friend.

To Mary Margaret :)  Welcome home to 12 Step Forums!!  Hang in there sister, it can take awhile to get used to living in the reality we once avoided in our addictions.  Self-pity is one of the hardest character defects to overcome but I am here to say that it can be done!!  And don't let anyone tell you how fast to "work" the steps; it's all about living them in your heart, and with others, all day long.  It took me quite some time to understand that I was an addict and then to accept it and surrender to this wonderful program called Narcotics Anonymous. 

While the journey remains the same, not all of us run, some of us walk!  I'm sure once you get out of the isolation that tends to stick with some of us after getting clean, you will find you have many friends!  Stick with the winners and Keep Coming Back!!  You are right where you are supposed to be at this point in your recovery, I have always heard, and I believe that is true :)

NA Love and Hugs ((((Mary Margaret))))

NA_ROCKS

I cannot agree more on this issue even if it means that I run the risk of being labeled a NA Nazi, not my problem you see

I agree with you Dave. The Big Book has some great stuff... The Acceptance deal, that used to be on page 449, is incredible and has gotten me through a LOT of stuff! The third step prayer in the Basic Text is my preference however as I've never offered up my will willingly! LOL I needed God to TAKE my will... Jack me for it! ROFL

The spiritual axiom=
If i am disturbed,then sometings the matter with me.
My first priority is to address that first.
For ionce I am serene again,life will look good again.

Hiya Raman :)

yes Dean,,Im tryuin to practice that in context of my car engione ending up dead.
First of all it was my fault for not recognizing signs of problems.
I could well have tended to it,, but my old friend procrastination came into the scene to play mischief again.
As i do an inventory ,,, i can see ive missed at least 6 chances to set it right.
Its like the first chance came when the damage wouldnt have happened if id tended to the problem and the last cvhance was just before the enginme went completely dead.
I would have gotten away with a busted cylinder head if id taken heed of the last chance,,,but no I didnt and now its a dead engine and about 100 dollars im looking at.
I really wish id slowed up on the schedules and taken buses and tramas and trains instead.
Now its damage control time and im saying to myself ;
"Its my fault,,i could have stopped and given it for repairs and saved me money.
But at that time warnings werent heeded because i did not realize the priority."

And yes Dean,,thank God I stopped short in that unmanageable relationship.
thank Gos its only the bloody car and not my relationship or my clean time thats busted.
Ive used the very same principles of the spiritual axiom in that relationship,,,its my fault for obssessing, compelling etc.


Thanks for the mails I get from EGNA NARocks,,,they have been a great help in my recovery.
Thats been the only Forum where i only read and not say or share anything.
It gives me some moments of humility...

Now folks here comes a very disturbing and difficult thing to accept===
seems like Bill Wilson (R.I.P.) wrote the Steps after doing LSD trips with some intellectuals ,,Aldous Huxley among others.
The source of that information is an eighties reprint of an article by Bill,,stating  how he had experienced LSD.
Anyone know of these things ??
Is it a fact then that the 12 Steps came as a result of an LSd experience by Bill ?

AA, Bill Wilson and LSD
Many of you probably know already that Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, was an avid supporter of the use of LSD to treat alcoholism. I found this biographical article online (in Modern Drunkard magazine, "Standing Up For Your Right to Get Falling Down Drunk Since 1996", which I have never heard of before now but which seems quite relevant itself) which is brief, catchy and fascinating. It reminds me of several interesting and widely applicable points, not the least of which is that the popularity and longevity of any movement, whether a cult, a philosophy, or a therapeutic technique, ultimately depends as much on the charisma of the initial promoters as it does on any qualities of the core idea. Just think what the world of addiction treatment would be like today if Bill Wilson hadn't been such a character!
This is my favorite part of the article:


One of his therapeutic journeys lead him to Trabuco College in California, and the friendship of the colleges founder, Aldous Huxley. The author of Brave New World and The Doors of Perception introduced Wilson to LSD-25. The drug rocked Wilsons world. He thought of it as something of a miracle substance and continued taking it well into the 60s. As he approached his 70th birthday, he developed a plan to have LSD distributed at all AA meetings nationwide. The plan was eventually quashed by more rational voices, and a few years later the Federal government made the point moot by making the drug illegal. (That Wilsons plan was shot down is probably fortunate. LSD is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.)

http://www.dosenation.com/listing.php?smlid=4189( last viewed by Raman on 31/01/09)

Raman wrote:

---

Did Bill Wilson use LSD?

Question: Is it true that A.A. co-founder Bill Wilson used LSD after he stopped drinking?

---

Yes Raman,  this is what I've heard from several well informed AAs, including my sponsor.  But like Bob Earle, famous AA circuit speaker remarked,  Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob were ultimately interested in recovering alcoholics being the best that they could be.  The were looking at diet and exercise, personal development, and many other areas of self improvement.
LSD  looked very promising at that time, and as someone who has used it and a few other "mind expanding drugs" understand the alure.  I don't believe that Wilson intent for the drugs use was an ongoing one such as people taking maintanence meds like zolof.  I think he saw it as a way for more people to have a spiritual experience through a change in brain chemistry, which was deemed necessary for the compulsion of drinking to be removed. 

I watched a show about a japanese religeous practise where individuals would make a pilgramige to a remote spot and deprive themselves of food and sleep for 3 or 4 days.  This would bring about a permanent change in brain chemistry and a sort maturation of thought followed.  This kind of goes along with some other notions of this type is along the the same lines of what Wilson was thinking. 

Recently, I was reading about Andrew Jackson, our President and how he administered to his own "blood letting" in the evenings, at the White House.
For some reason, we don't hold it against him and let it diminish the history of his Character. 

 

Its written that service in NA is best exemplified as doing the right thing for the right reason.


The point im trying to make ( but not prove ) is this= In live meetngs of regular groups it will be unthinkable for AA to be quoted in an NA meeting. The same in AA,, thyed immediately object to NA references in their meetings. This may well be a worldwide trend. The NA preamble here in UK states cleary the basis for identification and in AA they are strongly focussed on addiction to a particular substance only, and only recovery from it.

These are accepted givens,going by what we read in literature as well as personal experiences. Im too am witness, and I bear personal witness to how these things are in usual,live,regularly scheduled meetings.Its been the subject of much acrimonious debate and who knows how many that had a desire to recover lost that desire by being exposed to these things,both in NA and in AA !

However that said, I must add qucikly my experience of empathy ,, the healing force for all addicted people that truly exisits behind the facades of appropriateness,propriety etc.(IMO)
I am greatful to them in both Fellowships who gave me support in my recovery when i was faced with these mitigating circumstances myself. I remember them with fondnes for their kindness and Bless em each day. Ive had the great fortune of many fab,.lasting friendships and close associations in NA and AA.

Moreover Ive had AAs say to me (in perhaps unguarded moments) "all said and done, NA members who work their Program are the most spriitual people " Then they went on to say "An alcoholic can well be in an NA meeting and get to share exactly as he/she shares in a AA meeting and be accepted,provided AA isnt not mentioned. Which means that drunkenness can be shared and someone in NA may identify and it is well within the heading of desire to stop using.. However an addict sharing about smack will be immediately asked to shut up in AA simply ecause it dosent match a desire to stop drinking. This makes NA more "all inclusive", a perfect example of a Spiritual Program" They impled thus, that the onus is on us recovering addicts in NA to be more tolerant and forgiving and all embracing.

Now,what about Forums of this sort ? Shouldnt we be more tolerant ? Shouldnt we be more tolerant in this particular case of Captain ? And generally whosoever uses AA references . Without wanting to condone what we percieve as his judging a newcomer, what we perhaps didnt realize is that he may well have done it good - naturedly,, with a genuine desire to be helpful. Thats why ,,if one notices,,in my own relpy I posted an NA quote rather than attack head on.

When i ask God to guide me in my recovery (the NA way),,I also ask God to have me remember that noble thoughts can come from all driections. Its always inspiring to read or hear someone refer to the Texts.

After all, its not only what we door say ,but why we do or say it ! Theory and practice of both Fellowships are basically underpinned with empathy,,a healing force for all addicted people !(imho). That is why my sposor stressed the importance of an open minded Program of Personal Action.

With all that said, I now leave this discussion to follow its own natural route,,which obviously means that all must participate in order for this to be a truly "conscience " process. The end decisions as we all know come from the collective perspective,and if tempered by individual love and caring for the still suffering addict.(whatever the substance),,all will be well.,,we will grow in numbers,,and most importantly for this topic,, we will not feel alone.

NA truly means "Never Alone,Never Again"

-- Edited by Raman at 06:32, 2009-02-01

Yes fine, agreed. But thats the "official view". But what do us here think ? That bulletin was published when there were hardly any such Forums such as these,,,

But then again,, written in that same article, as a general suggestion =

Our members who have used these arguments to rationalize an anti-AA stand, thereby alienating many sorely needed stable members, would do well to re-evaluate and reconsider the effects of that kind of behavior.  Narcotics Anonymous is a spiritual fellowship.  Love, tolerance, patience, and cooperation are essential if we are to live our principles."

Once again,,we in NA are reminded that the onus is on us !

--

-- Edited by Raman at 15:05, 2009-02-02

I have the same problem. I went to all meetings and still never found anyone I connected with. I do not have a sponsor and I have no sober support. Surprisingly I have managed to stay clean for 7 months now. I guess for me it is not strangers at the meetings that hold my sobriety in their hands. It is the people who are already in my life that I care about. But then again I don't know what I am missing so it is hard to say.

"When an addict, any addict reaches out for help, I want the hand of NA to always be there,,and for that I am responsible". 
I am responsible for ending lonliness,,but not in an addictive way. I am not "addictied " to company,, I am not using people to fix feelings. Its the real relationships I have developed in NA thats made life meaningful,as long as they dont get addictive. 

When my relationships,(not only the intimate ones) become obssessive and compulsive,the next thing will be the selfish acts . Now thats a sign of my dis-ease in progress. Next in this context I will quote an authority on relationships.I am not naming the source cause that may imply endorsement of outside sources. If I am refering to an outside source as an individual in NA ,there is no problem .However,it may be taken out of context so I will keep that authority anonymous. So here it is= 

1."Remember that a relationship is a pooling of resources.This means that with each relationship you are not only giving but also becoming more" 
2. "Dont feel as if you are required to spend your every waking hour with those you love.Move aside from time to time and allow them a seperate space too" 
3. "Dont think of forever. think of now and forever will take care of itself" 

(now back to my own thinking,,ha,ha !!!) When I turn over ME,, I get WE. And strangely enough, all of our 12 Steps begin with WE,. And finally in the 12th,,"WE" bestows pon me a spiritual experience,and i share this. We tried to carry this message to addicts and practice these Principles in all our affairs. And thereby end lonliness ,,but there is a but. The key is the relationships built around the activity of carrying the message to the addict that still suffers .The relkationship is with a bunch, team,group etc. of recovering addicts who like me care for the desperate,dying addict and want to make a differance. This points to quality and not quantity Which means I need to build up that. 

Heard this one ? "Clean time does not necessarily imply recovery",. At that point of suffering, clean time will imply the need to recover from the disease. Recovery at this point means cleaning up on the ways the disease of addiction  manifests even without the use of drugs. A clue is given about having better relationships in that one word "TRIED." Placing unrealtstic expectations on myself or others is a negative antecedent in a relationship. I must allow others their own shortcomings and let them be themselves,in the sense of what they do and how they behave.I dont have to judge them or calibrate them. 

All we can do is try. No amount of intervention by us can convince an addict to change. That desire , the Basic Text says has to come from within. It has to be an intrinsic motivation,which motivation may well be the effect of intense pain and punishment of using drugs and then withdrawls. In my case it was more than anything else the using of drugs against my will and the terrible withdrawls i had to go through.. Seems like unless I am sick and tired of being sick and tired I may not want ro listen. 

Thats been the Truth for me. 

One major cause of lonliness that I,my sponsor,sponsees and like minded friends have agreed upon is SELFISHNESS> When I am willing to let go of selfishness,,there has been a permanent end to my lonliness !! It works without fail each time I try. God Bless you  more than ever in your recovery . May the experience of hundreds of thousands of recovering addicts guide you,, if indeed that be your own choice !

-- Edited by Raman at 18:56, 2009-02-07

-- Edited by Raman at 18:58, 2009-02-07

Thanks Dale,,how are you doing.?
Went to Bradford last nite to a fab meeting.
Then this morning I tried to get to the Leeds meeting,but theyve changed venue and I couldnt find it.
'"10 pounds out of pocket and didnt get to the meeting" i was thinking when I took a spot inventory.
Then I realized I was doing a lot of walking,,much needed and then Higher Power led me to a nice bookshop and I could get soem textbooks at unbelievably cheap prices.

Also the sun was out the whole day and folks all around looked like they were happy.

it doesn,t matter wether the meeting was on,what matters is that you were willing to go x