magical thinking

Dave m · Veteran Member

I don't have to do 90 meetings in 90 days

2ala2 · Veteran Member

Congratulations Dave:
Your bubble has been busted..

kitizzy · Senior Member

I love it Dave,
embellished or not....Maybe we wll need to be talked to that way. After all, we enter the program broken people but, that big ugly ego is still hiding in there somewhere...

mrwinkie · Senior Member

LOLOLOLO

thanks dave

-- Edited by mrwinkie at 08:26, 2008-09-25

-- Edited by mrwinkie at 08:27, 2008-09-25

imikens · Senior Member

I have not done 90 meetings in 90 days and don't need to. Doing meetings, group meetings, etc., and not dissing meetings. Meetings essential. But there is no magic in some formula. It is about what you need to get sober and stay sober. If you need 100 meetings in 50 days, then do 100 meetings in 50 days.

One of the complaints I am finding about AA and NA as I read more and more that seems to have merit, the only one I've found that actual does and AA and NA work and not dissing them, is there tends to be a legalistic mindset that goes like this: "You have to do this thing THIS way, and if you don't do it THIS way, you are in denial and relapse. But IF you do it THIS way, you will have a good outcome because it just works that way."

That is legalistic magical thinking. I'm not going to get well by replacing bad strategies for living with still bad strategies. Legalistic magical thinking is BAD news.

Want to be very careful as that is not an excuse to stop working and doing AA and NA. NOT saying that at all. Its a caution to be careful with our thinking so that we aren't replacing one bad strategy for another.

There is nothing magical about 90 in 90. The principle is the key. IF you need to get to meetings, GO GO GO. It doesn't matter how many, how often and for how long. Get help. The lie we have believed is its about us, for us, we can do it alone, I have a power all by myself that I can use to handle me. And that lie is confronted and exposed and corrected by meeting with other folks and facing the truth. We need others. We need the Higher Power to be submitted to.

The reason we get better is not some magic due to a number of meetings in a number of days. We get better because of what happens in us when we are with others.

I don't know if that makes sense or not. We clearly have to unlearn old strategies and relearn new healthy effective SOBER strategies. Legalistic magical thinking is NOT healthy. And while its not all over the place in this thread and I'm not saying it is, there is a hint of it AND I've clearly heard it at meetings.

Do the work. Go to meetings. Move forward. Stay sober and clean. Learn healthy ways of thinking and effective strategies. Avoid unhealthy like the plague. I mean just run from it.

bree · Member

imikens...
when we arrive in narcotics anonymous, we're told to do lots of things. 90 in 90 is one of them. the people who tell us these things, our predecessors, know how to stay clean. WE DON'T. follow the suggestions (in my area they're on the back of the meeting list) and you WILL stay clean. you won't start really recovering by taking the 8 suggestions alone, there is more work to be done, but you WILL stay clean. and that's what needs to come first. so when i tell a newcomer to make 90 meetings in 90 days, that's because that is what's best for them. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR THEM. just like i didn't either. our best thinking got us high time and time again. when i came into the rooms i was told shut up and just listen, and take suggestions from those who have been here longer than me. and that has worked for me as it has for many, many others. you're right that there is no magical number, it could be 80 in 80 or 200 in 200. the point of it is so there's a goal. so you're working towards something. so you have a schedule. and so you have 90 days in a row to get some hope and hear a message. so you can begin learning a new way of life. when i was new, if i went to, say, 1 or 2 meetings a week i probably would not still be here. i needed to immerse myself in the literature, the people, the principles, THE ROOMS most importantly. i didn't only use drugs twice a week, so for me, when i got here, i couldn't only go to meetings twice a week. my entire life was stealing, copping, getting high, tricking, copping, getting high, etc. etc. etc. so 3 hours a week was NOT gonna change me. but, of course, everyone's different. :) ANYONE WHO IS NEW, MAKE 90 MEETINGS IN 90 DAYS.

-- Edited by bree at 11:31, 2008-09-25

imikens · Senior Member

Please do whatever you need to do bree. Glad you are sober and in recovery.

kitizzy · Senior Member

Jim,

The whole idea behind NA and AA is to follow by example.
Not ALL of the examples, but luckily for us, there are a lot of clean addicts who have been very successful in their recovery.
Through their trials and errors we can find a path somewhere in there that works.
what you are saying sounds like not seeing the forest for the trees....

And it is not up to us to take away a thread for a person who is using a legalistic thought to stay clean.
At the begining, I don't care what a person does. The point is to do whatever it takes to stay clean.
Being in the NA fellowship is a choice. There are other ways to recover.

imikens · Senior Member

Thanks kit. I think I understand. What I am pointing to is not to diminish any of that. Its to identify that legalistic magical thinking that while it may feel good, is not healthy AND it also removes us from really doing the work we need to do.

You can see it from a different angle with us Christian folks who want God to just heal everything and claim it, and then NOT do the work. You don't have to put a "Christian" label on it for legalistic or magical thinking to exist.

There is no magic in 90 of anything. The goal, the desired outcome, the motivation is do what you need to do to get clean and sober. If doing 90 meetings in 90 days becomes a legalistic magic burden and control thing for someone, is that getting healthy? Of course not.

Meetings absolutely essential. Surrender/submit to authority, totally essential. Learning by others, totally essential. Legalistic magical thinking is not. It is unhealthy and not exactly what sobriety is about. Sobriety is about health and freedom. Not about bondage to some other lie.

Its not okay that an alcoholic stops drinking but turns to porn. He or she may look good not drinking and all, but that is not sobriety and freedom. And while they may not be drinking, that is not sobriety.

Substituting one lie for another is not recovery. Sorry. But there it is. We don't get well that way. We get well with the truth. Yes?

Recovery IS a lot of work. Sobriety demands it. The goal is not to stop this or that. The goal is to get to what sobriety is about. That also means no shortcuts by buying into a lie that while feels good, is not good for us anymore than our addiction.

Again NOT dissing 90 meetings in 90 days. If someone needs it, do it. If someone needs a bazillion meetings in a week, go man go..... The health that results is not due to any number of meetings. Its due to the work we must do that the number of meetings we attend. No magic. Just work. Do the work. Be honest. Let the light shine and the truth reign. No matter how hard it is to do, and it is hard. I understand. But that is how we get well, not by legalism and magic.

As addicts we don't want to "work". I understand. We want shortcuts. We want any thing BUT doing the hard work we need to do. My addict nature would just love it if the Lord would just snap His fingers and "heal" me. That is being an addict talk. "I want it now, I want it all"

No magic, no where, at no level, no how. No tricks. Work how we get well.

So what IF a person can't do 90 Meetings in 90 Days? Are they doomed? Not serious about recovery? Not worth finding some other alternative that does no further harm and yet moves them through the work of recovery? Of course the answer to that is no they aren't doomed and yes they are worth finding something that does work for them to keep moving forward and taking their recovery seriously. Just because I'm pointing out the problem or un-healthfulness of magical thinking does not mean there isn't serious work to do. An alternative could actually be more difficult in terms of the work one needs to do than 90 meetings in 90 days.

It feels to me now in my third week of my own recovery and having been around it for awhile on the other side of it before I had to deal with it for me, it is ME who needs to be in recovery now, too many catch phrases, too much magic, seeing too many people already in meetings that are stuck at this or that step. Sobriety is about the work, and to keep on doing the work, and when you think you are done doing the work, do it again....

I'll call it as I see it. Too much already sounds to me like cop outs, magical thinking, etc., and the end result is people are not moving forward. I've heard the same people with the same issues with the same suggestions now for THREE weeks and 12 meetings. And no one has said, "Hey you know what, what is really going on here that you are still at the same place over and over and over.... How do we help you move ahead?" Isn't part of this recovery thing calling bull shit bull shit?

Seems to me not much of that going on and as a result folks are not being confronted with theirs and challenged to move forward to sobriety.

Legalistic magical thinking is a huge problem and if anyone thinks they can substitute bad thinking, bad strategies, with legalistic magical thinking and they are moving toward sobriety, they are kidding themselves. It may feel good but it is hurting them overall. You know, like that Vicodin I took. Made me feel good, was killing ME.

Substituting one bad way of thinking for another is hardly doing no further harm.

Again glad folks are doing what they need to do. Not dissing them. Not challenging their being clean. I am totally and completely thrilled to death for them. BUT think about what is behind the things we are telling ourselves and IF not true we have to confront that and get the lies gone by replacing the lies with the truth.

Isn't that the work we are doing? And if so, doesn't that "work" need to apply across the board even to our recovery?

Jim

-- Edited by imikens at 17:32, 2008-09-25

BigV · Senior Member

From "What is the NA program"

We have learned from our group experience that those who keep coming to our meetings regularly stay clean...

imikens · Senior Member

I'm sure that is the case. However that is not what I've been addressing. I've made it clear go to meetings man, go go go. As am I. 5 nights a week right now and on Sunday, it is where my home group is as well so its just like a meeting. So maybe 6, if you count Sundays, meetings a week.

I've said enough on the matter.

Thanks,
Jim

DeanC · Guru

"Legalistic magical thinking is a huge problem and if anyone thinks they can substitute bad thinking, bad strategies, with legalistic magical thinking and they are moving toward sobriety, they are kidding themselves. It may feel good but it is hurting them overall. You know, like that Vicodin I took. Made me feel good, was killing ME.

Substituting one bad way of thinking for another is hardly doing no further harm.

Again glad folks are doing what they need to do. Not dissing them. Not challenging their being clean. I am totally and completely thrilled to death for them. BUT think about what is behind the things we are telling ourselves and IF not true we have to confront that and get the lies gone by replacing the lies with the truth. "

magical thinking

Type: Term
Definitions:
"1. irrational belief that one can bring about a circumstance or event by thinking about it or wishing for it; normal in preschool children, it also occurs in schizophrenia."

hmm... Sounds like Faith and positive thinking to me. Oh wait, only Jesus can do that for me right? I have to say that I find this repetitve rhetoric, from someone with around 30 days clean, a bit unfounded. I mean, really comparing going to 90 meetings in 90 days to you taking vicodin? That just doesn't make any sense.

Jim, if you don't want to follow a suggestion from the program, fine. (no ones going to critisize you for that) And we've all been very supportive of you, so why the big protest defending your decision? Obviously you have a plan, I hope it works for you, but why bad mouth the program and the people working it. I know that you said that you're not, but you really are.

I went meetings every day for over 3 years, does that mean that I suffer from "Magical thinking" and that I'm lying and possibly also suffering from schizophrenia? Last time I checked, it'd been a couple decades since I drank, drugged, smoked, or engaged in promiscuous sex. Hmmm... maybe "Legalistic Magical Thinking" worked for this AA,NA,ACOA,Codependent... wink

-- Edited by DeanC at 21:08, 2008-09-25

rocky · Senior Member

sounds like someone is tring to work out how to go and do something and to justify it first if you want what is offered you work the program and do what your sponser and the group says do or you die!!!!! i have done it every way there is to do it and the only way it works is to work it like it means your life if you need god then god is what you need i use every thing i can get my hands on to keep clean and serene one day or minute or second so all this really sounds like is someone taking his will and tring to run with it and i wish you all the best and god bless but it has been proven over and over again that thjose who work it get it and those who dont dont

trueakitalover · Senior Member

I am a chronic relapser ok. How I tended to relapse was when I got away from kaing meetings on a daily, I wouldn't check in with my sponsor, I would do all that old addict behavior I had going on before I came to the rooms. I had to reach out and get connected in the rooms. How else are you going to get phone numbers if you don't go to meetings. If I stay at home and don't go to meetings and I find myself in a dangerous spot in the first 90 days and I have no phone numbers but only 3 numbers I am going to end up using eventually. I don't want to use ever again. My sponsor said that for every meeting I made get 1 phone number a day for those 90 days. I now have 90 numbers but I don't call everyone on my list, but I can call if I find myself really in a rough spot. This is how it has helped me to stay clean.

Shannon and an addict in recovery

imikens · Senior Member

from someone with around 30 days clean, a bit unfounded.

And that sounds quite judgemental Dean. Just because I stepped forward to deal with my Vicodin issue does not mean I am stupid and know NOTHING.

Glad you have taken to recovery so well and you are doing so well.

I am however not going to substitute submission to AA or NA or 12 steps as an addiction to being addicted to Vicodin.

If that bothers some of you, as it obviously does, oh well.

Magical thinking is not faith by the way. Faith is based on facts, standing on those facts, it trusts what it can't "see" because of what it can "see". Sorta like driving over a bridge in San Francisco where one end of the bridge is covered in fog but the end you are getting on is not. You trust that there is an exit to the bridge, what you can't see, because you can reasonably conclude there is an exit because you can see the entrance. Faith is not magical thinking.

Legalism is if I do this a particular way, I'll have that particular outcome.

Neither kind of thinking belong in folks who are sober.

Again, that seems to bother some. Oh well.

I offered very objective opinion, and yet I am judged personally? So much for the NA Forum being a safe place hey?

DeanC · Guru

imikens wrote:

"from someone with around 30 days clean, a bit unfounded.
And that sounds quite judgemental Dean."
Jim, "judgement" is a subjective term, are you disputing the amount of time that you have? My comment was not personal, but merely my feelings about the highly critical remarks, about the program, that you made, since only being around it for such a short period of time.

"If that bothers some of you, as it obviously does, oh well."
Seem here that you don't mind if your comments affect others. Isn't that a bit insensitive?
"Faith is based on facts"
Like the universe is only 6,000 years old, because a 2,000 year old book says so?
"Legalism is if I do this a particular way, I'll have that particular outcome. Neither kind of thinking belong in folks who are sober."
Your deffinition (of duplication really) is the main ingredient in the success of just about any new undertaking. Even inventers will have to follow an established business plan or patent process to reap any benefits from the fruits of their labor. You would never have graduated nursing school had you not had this belief. It's also one of the corner stones of recovery, believing that if we follow in the footsteps of those that got clean and sober before us, that we can have the same or similar results. It's just hard to witness, a process that takes years, in only 30 days

"Again, that seems to bother some. Oh well."
Once again, you're displaying insensitivity, why?

"yet I am judged personally? So much for the NA Forum being a safe place hey?"
And then take it personally when people disagree with you? Sounds like you want to have a one sided discussion.

kitizzy · Senior Member

Dean posted some valid points. A lot of what I was thinking but did not know how to say.
I chose the NA fellowship because It offered me the chance to be around like minded people.
Their brains worked like mine yet they were happy.
If I want to be happy and overcome my barriers then it only seems logical that if I tried things they did that I may get their results.
No where in the program does it say that a couple magic thoughts are going to get you clean and happy.
Everything that I have heard and read says that they offer a way for me to find happiness.....I have to put in the work.
People at meetings have been stuck in the same place for three weeks.....
Who cares? I was an addict for over 14 years. I was stuck in the same place for a REALLY REALLY long time.
If I start to work on something and it takes me 3 weeks or 3 months to work through it. I am all good with that. I'm not using and if I am working on something I am growing even if I am not moving.
In the Traditions it says to put principles over personalities.
You are not going to go into the rooms to hear everyone talking about doing things your way.
Even in the Christian churches, they use the same bible yet there can be so many ways to interpret it.

NA works for the people that believe in the principles and traditions of the program.

The magical thinking that they offer has helped many people before me. I have seen some of those old-timers at meetings and I have to say,

I want what they have. A lot of them have a light within them that burns very bright.

Sometimes people forget the three most important tools

Honesty open-mindedness and willingness.

Honesty means being honest with yourself, open-minded enough to try something different and the willingness to carry it through.

In my using dreams post, I got the sense from your words Jim, that in your mind you have it all figured out and

thought you should give me all of the answers.

I was wondering what it was that was so interesting in my yard that you were willing to neglect your own weeds to tell me about mine.

In a way that is a form of denial....I think that your judgements on the fundamentals of the program is a form of denial also.

Good luck Jim. I hope that you find a path that is right for you.

-- Edited by kitizzy at 08:31, 2008-09-26

Dave m · Veteran Member

I am an addict my name is dave m. Thank you everyone for your wonderfull advice and comments. I didn't intend to have a battle started I was just trying to share my experience. I don't have a lot of experience and I think the best things for me to do (for today) take the suggestions I am given and use them to the best of my ability. This programn is not just about going to meetings. There is a lot to do, step work, work with sponsor/other addicts.
I can't get healthy if i don't put in the work. I realize that I am an infant and really know nothing about nothing. A thought that I have been running through my gears and using to help is I am only 14 days clean, 14 days old if you will. I am breaking the law if i even use alcohol until 21. So for today anyway I can't pick up alcohol or any drug. Last night it wasn't even a question of keeping in today, I needed to keep in the moment. So I picked up the phone and called another addict. I am trying to follow the suggestions that are being given to me. I am trying to remember that the only requirment is a desire to stop using. so i keep things in today and do my best to follow the suggestion. The only things I need to do today is admit my powerlessness over my addictrion and recognize the unmanigability in my life. I need to go to a meeting today, I need to talk to someone whose thoughts are not on using and who has found a new way of life. So long as i follow these things I have nothing to fear. I am an addict my name is Dave m

Dave m · Veteran Member

I am hoping for I guess direct e-mail contact if anyone is comfortable with that. I struggle sometimes minute to minuste and any help i can get is appreciated and I will allways honor anonimity. my email is iggsacto1969@yahoo.com. thanks

kitizzy · Senior Member

Hi Dave,

I just want to reiterate my first comment.

I loved your post. I still think that the embellished advice that you got was great.
Welcome back to the program.
Look forward to reading more of your posts.

Remember it works if you work it...

Take care
Kathleen

ItsAllGolden · Senior Member

I had a problem with going to a meeting everyday myself, stating, I have a family, I have a job, I need time for myself, etc. - What I was told:

* The 1st thing I put in front of my recovery will be the second thing I lose...followed closely by my recovery being the first thing I lose.

* Someone asked me how often I used. I told them minimum 5 times a day. They told me, well if you used 5 times a day rightly so, you should probably go to 5 meetings a day, but your recovery can settle for 1 a day.

* Meeting makers make it (from our literature)

* It takes 90 days in order to form a habit (i.e. 90 meetings in 90 days makes it a habit)

trueakitalover · Senior Member

dave M,

I am shannon an addict have you gotten a basic text yet? If so here is a great suggestion read who is an addict and talk it over with your sponsor what you identify with in that chapter. It does help. It was really hard for me in the beginning to do my 90 in 90 but I had to push myself to those meetings. I caught myself telling my sponsor lies about making meetings and it ended me up to using again and coming back with my tail between my legs. This time I make ameeting anytime I have a chance and if I can't get to a face to face meeting I either read basic text, It works how and why, Or I go and work on my step 1 since my sponsor has suggested that I get started. I do it without complaint. I was a fighter when I first came into the rooms I wasn't going to listen to no body, but they say when the pain get's great enough you will share it and it does give you a sense of relief.

thanks for letting me share shannon

BigV · Senior Member

Thanks for sharing everyone and lets tread lightly here its getting combative.

The ONLY requirement for membership is a desire to stop using.

I am going to bring up some spiritual principles here to disarm this conversation and I would appreciate some involvement and use of them,

Hope, Surrender,acceptance,honestly , open-mindedness,willingness,faith,tolerance, patience,humility,unconditional love,sharing and caring.

Jim an addict alone is in bad company 90/90 is so you get yourself in the rooms with people who can relate to you and your problem and help you work out a solution so you can go on living absitant .

All we're supposed to do here is carry the message.

The lessons we learn in our recovery are biter and painful, we learn a lot from other peoples experiences so we dont make the same mistakes, but we can not deny other addicts their pain and we have to let them choose just what they want and dont want from us and this program.

Personally I haven't and dont take everythings thats suggested to me from others, hell I dont even ask much for help but I know and I have learned whats neccessary for me to remain clean and when I need to do more thats what I do and when I need to back off i do that too. When someone comes to me for help or a situation grants itself to me to be in service i'm there and I try hard not to expect someone to take all my suggestions I just want them to know that we can relate and be on the same page with all of this, I would love everyone I talk with to get it but more often then not they dont and some have become friends who I care deeply about but they are on there own journey same as I am and as time goes by hopefully we learn, bill W said that most of us get this through the "Educational Variety " thats how I've gotten it and found what works for me.

Narcotics Anonymous is not a religious organization and does not mandate any particular belief system. It does teach basic spiritual principles such as honesty, open-mindedness, faith, willingness, and humility that may be applied in everyday life. The specific practical application of spiritual principles is determined by each individual. Recovery in NA is not a miracle cure that happens within a given period of time. It is a process, ongoing and personal. Members make an individual decision to join and recover at their own pace.

Nor should we argue with a member about there religous choices and in the same due respect another member should not push his beliefs on others, this is an each to there own personal choice thing and respect should come from both partys.

I'd really like to welcome Dave to the board so glad you found us here sounds like your doing great so far hang in there and keep posting us with updates.

So with that said I will close this thread if the bickering keeps going back and fourth, lets tone it down guys, thanks so very much and love you all so glad everyone shares so much the board is going great.

dan h · Senior Member

Hope you guys can stand one more reply on this thread. I think it is easily overlooked by some less experienced members, and truthfully even by some more experienced members, that we are talking about "suggestions." No one is going to make us do anything we don't want to do. On the other hand, the literature says, "If you WANT what we have to offer and are willing to make the effort to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps." (my caps) NA has never claimed to be the only way to recover. NA has no opinion on any other program or method of recovery. I agree that there are individuals and even groups who tend to carry the message in a "tough love" type manner. New members are directed to "Sit down, shut up, and learn to listen. You don't know s**t about recovery and if we want to know about gettin' high, we'll call on you." Tradition Four gives each group the right, the "autonomy," to carry the message however they see fit, as long as it doesn't affect other groups or NA as a whole. I know many addicts with a great deal of clean time and whose recovery I respect who say that was the only way they could GET the message. Didn't like cut on their dope, don't put cut on the message. I also know just as many, myself included, who feel like, while using, we had taken all the "being talked to like I had a tail" that we could stand. I didn't need anyone yelling at me and demanding that I do this or that. NA is about attraction. Some people are attracted to this tough love. I believe many are attracted to groups and individuals who demonstrate their recovery by their humility and caring attitude and that the message can also be carried in a loving, respectful manner.

Here's the solution for me. I only go to meetings that carry the message with an "attraction, not promotion" flavor, and whose meeting formats reflect this attitude. I was told that "Newcomers don't care how much we know, until they first know how much we care." Tradition Ones says ..."we follow this way of life by example, not direction." Webster's Dictionary defines the word "example" this way: "A pattern or model to be imitated.....or avoided." Which type of example do I want to be?

If there ARE no meetings in your area that reflect this loving attitude, get involved and START one! BE the example you want others to be. It only takes one person to step up and be that example. I guarantee there are others who feel the same way, but who are just to timid to say so. BE the change you would like to see in the world!!

I now relinquish the soap box.
Thanks for letting me share.

michaelg · Member

I dont know ehat all this sober talk is about. This is an NA message board. Tradition six says not to mix the two programs. Anyways as for the origin poster Basic txt page 55 last sentence. "Attending a meeting a day at least for the first ninety days is a good idea." Also there are 5+ stories of people who talk about 90 in 90 in the back. It worked for me and it can work for you. sober = not drunk Clean = clean living,virtuous, good, upright NA focuses on the diseaae of addiction, not the drug. Enjoy life clean. Not just "sober".

cdbuckberry · Guru

Dave M , You have good points but we are all different and each one of us treats our recovery different . Hope all is good for you , I did the 90 meetings in 90 days to make the program take hold . That was after 38 years of using on a daily basis .

Welcome to the Miracles In Progress Group of Narcotics Anonymous! This is not an official NA site, nor is it endorsed by the NA World Service Office.

From "What is the NA program"

magical thinking