Hi Robyn,

It's an interesting topic you've brought to our attention.


My thoughts go something like this:

From a program perspective, it's between the addict and his sponsor.

From a fellowship perspective, I'm not sure about the message that is being conveyed to the newcomer. I will need to give that some more thought. Hopefully, the newcomer has a clear-thinking, non-judgmental sponsor with whom to discuss the matter.

From a personal angle, if it were me I would start my clean time again. If it were my sponsee, I would encourage him/her to do the same. However, if the sponsee was dead set against that or extremely fragile, I might let it go and approach it at a later date through some ongoing step work.

From a spiritual perspective, detach and observe without judgment.

It's for that member, his sponsor and his Higher Power to ascertain, not for me. For me, an addict is clean when he or she says they are, as what they tell me or what others say is not gonna matter eventually for his/her recovery. I have seen that most addicts in NA manage to stay stopped and recover only when they become honest with themselves, and what do I know, this member might be honest after all regarding his suicide attempt, and if his sponsor has announced his one year celebration, that only goes to confirm that the process of ascertaining whether it was a relapse or not has been gone through by him, his sponsor and his Higher Power already. I'd still join his milestone celebration and share his gratitude and joy. What is important for me is that he is back and clean after trying to kill himself. It's not where we were that counts but where we are going...

I am clean when I say I'm clean. IMO the issue of 'Clean Time' is Not open for anyone to judge or concern themselves with although I know how tempting it is for some not only to work their own program, but also have the need to work everyone elses program too.

I'm afriad I can't totally agree with you on that Cleudus. The one thing I know about the steps and the programme, is that for it to work, you've got to be honest. "It's an honest programme" I've had that drummed into me from the beginning. I also know that as a user I was and still am capable of gross deception and manipulation. As someone who has attempted suicide on a number of occassions; it's a major cry for help. Your friend attempted suicide December 1st, it's now December 30th and they're okay? Wow?

Nobody is here to work anybody else's programme? But the literature is clear. Complete abstinence - that is the definition of clean time. I agree with Blithe, "From a fellowship perspective, I'm not sure about the message that is being conveyed to the newcomer" or anyone else for that matter. I can assure you, it would not be allowed to happen here. Your friend was not taking medication for illness or anything else. It sounds like your friend is ill and needs help. And again I agree with Blithe, this person must be in an extremely fragile state, and I think it should be suggested at some later date that perhaps he she start again when he/she is well and able. I can't speak for the sponsor.

I certainly don't think anyone is sitting in judgement of your friend. I think people must be feeling for him or her and what they are going through. But if they or anyone of us lose perspective or are able to make excuses for our relapses, it makes a mockery of the programme and what its trying to achieve, don't you think? I know that for me, it's not just about putting down the drink and the pills; it was about getting my self-respect back. My self-worth, my dignity and honour. And the only way to do that, was by getting honest.

Id like to share an experience=
I had reached the end of my limit and went into a treatment centre in 1987!
Stayed clean one month and then ran away hoe,,,, there i saw a strip of Calmpose.
I thought
"okf#$%,,, ill just take one and then finish it all"
by that time the people at the centre who were concerned for my well being called and told my Pa it amy be a suicide attempt,,
theyd identified it well,,, the disease stopped its control on me that day !!
I had one month clean before that,,, but changed it even tho it was just one single small white pill,,, it didnt even get me high !!
So i changed my clean date from November 1 to December 21 ST !!!
I hope ive been relevant !!
God Bless you all,,,

aw come on now,, this aint no court of some kind to judge right and wrong,,,
I was only sharing my experience and what has worked for me,,
basically i was very untrue fore NA taught me the therupatic value of being honest with another addict in recovery !!
Please read my post again,,
Nowhere in my post did i say whats right or wrong,, only my experience !!!
an if you judge that as a judgement,, then thats not my problem,,,
anyways,, the best way to reslove these issues are to get input from NA approved literature !!

Im not a zombie thats empty of thoughts,feelings,judgements,likes and dislikes and all those human things of the mind,, we may not judge each other conciously,,but its happening at a subconcious level all the time,, thoughts come from memory and judgement,,its not the thoughts or the judgements that vitiate the atmosphere in situations such as these,, its the condemnation that comes from an individual understanding of whats right and wrong and whats worked in the past ! there comes a time in an addicts life when we move away from condemnation towards what is called DISCERNMENT !!! verily thats what he last line in the Serenity Prayer says= 
WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE !!!!

-- Edited by Raman at 02:44, 2008-01-01

I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

cledus wrote:

---

Complete abstinence - that is the definition of clean time.
That's not right at all. Perhaps complete abstinance from using drugs for the wrong reasons, or complete abstinence from abusing drugs, but it's not complete abstinence that defines 'clean time'. Whoever wrote that quote, might do well to re-read the NA IP "In Times of Illness" as well as the sections of the BT that deals with addicts and 'Prescribed Meds'.

There are many addicts here(within the Fellowship) that would agree with the above analyogy contained in the quote who would tell other addicts "to be clean you must stop following your Dr's advice and not take Meds for any reason". Those addicts along with their strict guidelines for 'clean time', potentially can kill other addicts with their 'NA Purist' advice.

PS: Sorry Raman if you thought I was singling you out with my previous. I wasn't. We can only decide our OWN 'clean time' by being honest with ourselves. The issue should not be open for discussion by others nor should any addict be openly judged for what they claim.

---

We sure could use your ESH in the meetings cledus, we need support there also , let me know if you have any evenings available to chair please.


This is a good topic, this is a spiritual program not easy for us to stay focused on that and not judge or condemn others, I just really feel for someone who finds there only hope for peace is suicide. I've felt the hopelessness too and been there wanting the pain to stop, I try to stay out of that type of thinking and keep Gods will first.

 

"I just really feel for someone who finds there only hope for peace is suicide".

I hear you.

Do you consider a suicide attempt with narcotics a relapse?

My names Blessed and I am A Recovering Alcoholic-Addict that is also Bi-Polar. Suicide is part of Mental Illness that has nothing to do with N.A. I have been suicidal and I will always struggle with it for the rest of my life. That is "WHY" I/we take medications to stablilize the mood swings. Thanks be to God for Science and Doctors that have M.D. behind there names right?
As far as you all wondering whether or not this person should get a white chip to me is like this. I am on Medication because I have to be or the serotonin levels in my brain aren't right and I can't function well. I am either too Depressed or to Manic. It is horrible but Thanks to Sobriety I found out.
Was this person or is this person suffering from this illness or another? Shouldn't you be more concerned about the well being of this human being. Other than keeping a chip that may make the year or life for him. Would you want your Sobriety taken from you if you were sick from a Mental Illness?
Mental Illness is something entirely different than Addiction Mental Illness so what he did has nothing to do with N.A. or A.A. in my opinion.
One in Four people in America suffer from some form of Mental Illness look around you. A.D.D., A.D.H.D., Depression, Manic Depression, Scizo, ALcoholism, Addiction So on,
I do pray that this guy is under a Doctors care, pastors, sponsors, so on.

Blessed