A question for everyone

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

A question for everyone

Kenh · Senior Member

Personally, I agree with you Blithe, the literature should be kept to NA approved. This is a proven system that works for us addicts. I read all the NA approved literature that is posted. I agree with you that we can all find other self help books that can help us through our personal quirks, this type of literature should be kept to ourselves. I have made mistakes in the past, sharing literature that has helped me, other people looked at it and thought it was a waste of time. The personal shares are excellent and that is what keeps me coming back. Without the personal shares, I would not be on this site at all.

Kenh

BigV · Senior Member

I know this much and not much more, when I OPEN the NA book when I'm having troubles I find the answer, help and support I need threw others experiences and sharing..........

I believe it's ok to go outside of NA BUT like i have done I have forgotten where the answers lie already, in the NA literature and this reminds me, I need to get back in the book thanks Blithe smile

NA_ROCKS · Senior Member

NA's readings and literature helped me to get clean....and that's what I read and hopefully share most days.

If I know of something that helped me, self help books, I guess you could say, I might share them with others....and I have a few times.

As far as these boards go, sometimes it seems like a free for all; other literature that isn't NA and I guess I'm kinda like a few of you others, I read what is NA approved....and leave the rest.

Another group had a problem with NA Approved or Conference Approved literature. There was a disagreement on whether or not writings by addicts were NA or not. Some might have heard of NAWOL (NA Way Of Life) which is a free book written by addicts; basically like another Basic Text but it is not NA approved....

Maybe addict approved....but who knows. I've read it some and I like what it has to say. As far as using it in a meeting, well, it's not NA :)

I wonder what people think about this....if you've read the material and whether you agree or disagree on it being NA or not.

Curious me....

-- Edited by NA_ROCKS at 13:15, 2007-10-23

JasonD · Senior Member

I think if someone quotes a verse out of the Koran, for example, in an actual meeting he\she would proptly get a lesson in the traditions by the parking lot commitee. That is probably a good thing is some ways. However, an open minded person may also look at the message and the spiritual principles in it. Take what you need and leave the rest.

I am told that I should reconcile other people ESH from meetings with the literature.

Wouldn't non-na related literature outside of a meeting be considered an outside issue?

Raman · Guru

,,, Im not going to take any offense here,,
obviously im also being reffered to,,
i have posted some non NA stuff,,,
but always did that with the heading"NON NA"'read only if you want to >>
Mnay times in my recovery,,, answers have come from sourcesoutside of NA,,, especiallyas the Text says that we learn to turn problems over to professionals.
Especially in the case of emotions ,,,i found many True insights from other sources.
i believe it will and has helped many here who read it ...
in their responses they did say so.
One post had mention of a doctor,, that was wrong but that happened inadvertently !!!
Most of all,,, I took the cue from others sharings that were basically cut and paste jobs of something theyd read on the outside of NA,, so I thought maybe I should too !!
It its ok then it is ok,, if its not then its not !!
so how do we tell???
remember it says that results count in recovery ,,,, and when noble thoughts come to me from directions other than NA,,, who am I to refuse ??
as long as i dont use this wonderful Forum to campaign for a product,service or religion i think im in !!!

-- Edited by Raman at 15:35, 2007-10-23

Tahir · Member

For me, NA literature means literature written by recovering addicts in NA for addicts, based on each of our personal experiences with the NA program and our recovery in NA. Each of us sharing here some part of our recovery on a daily basis is NA literature whether approved or not. Nowadays, there is a great confusion even by what it means by NA-approved. For me, any literature written by addicts from all over the world (like the Basic Text was) with free and equal participation and finalized through a group conscience involving each and every group of the world as the groups (all the members in a group) want it in the final draft is NA-approved literature or in other words, fellowship-approved literature, not something written by non-addict professionals or by a special group of people on behalf of NA as a whole. In that sense, Basic Text or the book NA Way Of Life (NAWOL) that Glora mentioned have been written through the same process of open-participatory efforts of hundreds of addicts spanning years of writing their Experiences, Strength & Hope.... Groups in many areas and regions have started writing and bringing out their own literature born out of their individual and collective experiences with the NA program and recovery in NA. All these pieces of written experiences, strength and hope benefit me a lot equally. Like Jason said, I take what I want and leave the rest...

Anything written by NA recovering addicts IS NOT "non-NA", only what is written by outside people, non-addicts, is non-NA. The word "approved" somehow, to me, sounds too governing a word where one of our traditions say we as leaders in NA do not govern. And if the ultimate authority in NA is a loving God as another tradition says, then who among us has the power to approve or disapprove other than the group conscience involving each of us around the world through which our collective Higher Power expresses his/her/its will? There is more to it running more deeper if I choose to put it all here, but it will only turn out to be an endless, fruitless debate as to what came first - the chicken or the egg? Also, this debate I've found only manages to divert us all from our primary purpose where we might tend to forget that we are all allies and are on the same team

So suffice it to say "Take what you want and leave the rest, and if I feel I don't find anything to take, then I tend to forget that I can still take what I want - through giving

However, I'd like to suggest here that those who want some clearer direction in this issue read the text of Tradition Ten from the book "It Works: How and Why". You can do so online if you don't have a personal copy of this book at the following link:

http://www.naonlinerecovery.org/subpage21.html

Great topic, and thank you all for sharing your personal perspectives on this. I got to open my mind to quite a few newer perspectives in the process...

love you all, Tahir.

Lon · Senior Member

Hello friends,
This is a hotly debated subject in many circles.

On my personal side of this; I have been lead to many things that may be deemed to be "outside of NA" in the course of my recovery. If you read the Basic Text, there is a passage on page 17 that says "Addiction is a
physical, mental and spiritual disease that affects every area of our lives." Many areas that this addict needed to cover in his stepwork have little detail, or no mention at all, in Narcotics Anonymous literature. I cannot see the harm in sharing with other addicts the paths that my HP has lead me down so that I was able to find recovery for myself. Some of my biggest awakenings have not come from NA literature itself, but from the openmindedness to see bits of recovery in all kinds of things my HP has put out there for me to find.

Now to the technical side of posting NA literature on the internet;

If you look at what Narcotics Anonymous World Services says about the internet, and websites on the internet, you will find that any website that is not the NA.org website, an ASC website, an RSC website, or a website run by a group (and for now online only meetings are not considered a group); according to the WSO...it is not NA. They ask that the NA symbols not be used, and that we call them "recovery" or "12 step" websites.

IF we were a group the following would apply:

From FIPT Bulletin #1 available at http://www.na.org/legal/ipbul1-03rv.htm
Use by NA groups
These Guidelines outline the appropriate uses of NA logos and recovery literature by NA groups. The Guidelines also lay out criteria a group can use to avoid improper use. A description of the NA group--its nature, function, and role in the NA Fellowship--can be found in current NA service manuals. You are encouraged to review those sections describing groups prior to attempting use of the Guidelines described below.
.......................
Use by NA groups
As a general rule, no one has the authority to reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature without prior written permission from Narcotics Anonymous World Services. However, given the nature of our fellowship, our experience indicates that NA groups and only NA groups should have the authority to reproduce fellowship-approved recovery literature in certain instances. When preparing to reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature, NA groups should discuss the Fourth Tradition and follow all of these general guidelines:

An NA group should only reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature when it has a clear need to do so.
NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature reproduced by an NA group should be distributed only within that group. Such materials should always be given away free of charge; they should never be sold to generate income.
The text of NA Fellowship-approved books and pamphlets reproduced by an NA group should not be altered or modified in any way.
The copyright for the item being reproduced should be shown prominently as follows: Copyright © [year of first publication], Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.

As it sits now, in my opinion, we need to adhere to brief quotations attributed fully, as in the last line from the above quotation. If a pamphlet or other NA material is to be posted in its entirety, WSO copyrights require us to use a link to the appropriate material on http://na.org, instead of posting it on a non-NA site.

Controversial I know.....in all truth I was hesitant to even post this commentary. I would encourage you all to study the material provided on the Fellowship Intellectual Property Trust webpage at http://www.na.org/legal/bulletins-fipt.htm . If we like it or not, the fellowship has entrusted the WSO to distribute and protect our recovery literature...it's simply the nature of the beast in today's world.

Lon

-- Edited by Lon at 02:57, 2007-10-24

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

Thanks, everyone for your thoughts on this touchy topic.

Raman, thank you especially for not taking offense. My bringing up the topic is not personally directed at you.

Tahir, thank you for the reference to Tradition 10. I also think of Tradition 6 (We do not endorse any outside enterprise) as well as Tradition 7 (We humbly decline outside contributions).

I would also like to clarify my statement about personal writings. I was referring to unpublished personal writings, such as those that Jayson often posts. I am not referring to unpublished personal writings as being questionable.

Lon, my recovery has also led me down avenues other than NA, including readings. In fact, my sponsor often reminds me to look for spiritual guidance in all areas of life; it is not restricted to NA. I agree with you that it is important to share honestly about all aspects of my experience and my path. However, I think there is a huge difference between sharing something like, "I've been doing a lot of outside reading on communication and it's been a great help" and "I've been doing a lot of outside reading on communication, it's been a great help, and I'd like to read some of this book to you now......[read outside literature]."

__________

Again, this board is obviously not a meeting. I was just wondering what others were thinking about it and wondering if we have any desire to try to follow traditions.

-- Edited by Blithe Spirit at 16:44, 2007-10-24

Raman · Guru

Yes Blithe,,, I suppose quoting adverbatim from wht I read isnt reaaly a sharing of personal experience,strenght and hope !!
Like,,, maybe its wiser toshare what I read (gist of it) and how it helped me in my recovery,,,
the latest example is when I read about anger and how that pro. says that anger is a part of existance and perse not good or bad,,,
its my lack of assertiveness that lets anger develop into resentment and later hate !!
Now Im taking a cue from my dear friend BigV and say to you
"thanks Blithe for reminding me "!!!
hugs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Tahir · Member

love you all, thanks a ton for putting all your thoughts and perspectives here

We might not have it altogether, but together we have it all!

NA_ROCKS · Senior Member

Hugs all, here I am again heh heh....

I guess you could say that I can be a bit testy about what is NA and what is considered NA and all the rules and regulations that have come out of the last 20 years or so.

Interesting, our NA history, the fact that addicts split from the fellowship after the "baby blue" incident, the courts and more....and the 3rd Edition Basic Text Revised taking out (changing the 4th and 9th traditions) to suit the future purpose of the group....well....and publishing a Basic Text without the fellowship approval has kinda set me away from NA but not, if you get my meaning. I totally believe in NA; just not some of the ways it happened and continues to happen but that's my personal opinion :)

I believe the history of "US" is a cool thing to read and know about and if you get to talk to others who were there about what happened and when and why....

Anyway, I was told by the Basic Text that a meeting is two or more addicts together, sharing and caring the NA WAY. What's the big difference between face to face and online anyway. I believe once world finds a way of "intelluctualizingly" adding the internet to world, that groups on the internet will be considered NA. LOL Yes, I am a crazy addict :)

Doesn't matter to me; I consider all online and face to face NA "real meetings" as long as the readings and sharing is there :) As long as we are giving away freely, that which we were so lovingly given. And following our traditions in all we do as a group.

Just some more thoughts; I love this post :) Hugs and Love!!

JasonD · Senior Member

So why is it that NA has that stance on internet only groups? It sounds like it goes against the 4th and 5th traditions w/o violating any others. Am I missing something?

Raman · Guru

Well there is a difference between a group and a meeting,,,
two or more addicts sharing recovery the NA way is definately an NA meeting,,,
however the Group is another matter !!
The point we are missing here is that the Traditions are in context of Groups and NA as a whole,,,
And in perspective we in this Forum are basically sharing e.s.h as related to the Steps and not in context of Traditions,,,
The Group qualifications are clearly listed in the I.P. The Group as well as in the Group starter kit.
If we try to bring in Traditions here in context of calling this an NA Group then we need elected office bearers,,we need to have regularly scheduled recovery meetings at prefixed times as also "business meetings"'and we need to supprot the Group financially as well.
Moreover as in a live NA meeting feedback and comments should not be allowed to give it a proper "groups meeting" atmosphere !!
So I reiterate that we are basically a meeting place and are not to be hide-bound by Traditions,,, what matters we share and care for each other in conext of recovery and the 12 Step experience !!!
remember
""RECOVERY AS EXPERIENCED THRU OUR 12 STEPS IS OUR GAOL"""
(me im a "jazz head"addict and "improviser,, so Im ok with the way things are now at MIP,,)

-- Edited by Raman at 04:33, 2007-10-25

Lon · Senior Member

Jason...personally I dont think NAWS stance goes against tradition 5 at all, we do carry the message in an online setting. As far as tradition 4 "Each Group should be autonomous, except in matters affecting other Groups, or N.A. as a whole", I can see some points there; but I can see it on both sides of the equation.

In my experience "online recovery" is a nebulous thing. I have seen people use online as a reason to not go to meetings, so they rob themselves of seeing the miracle of recovery working in other peoples lives. It is so easy to pretend online..to be whoever you want others to think you are...just like using addicts do. Another danger of online recovery to addicts is to deprive themselves of the contact with addicts who can look them in the eye and know that they are hurting..or BSing..or just need a hug to get by today. To me recovery is about making connections and identifying with other addicts...not hiding in the isolation and imagined safety of my home like a using addict does. I have to take chances and get other recovering addicts into my life if I am to find faith that this program will work for me too.

Another "pet peeve" I have is online sponsorship for many of the the same reasons; in particular depriving addicts of the intimate contact with a sponsor. My sponsor knows me..he can tell how I am feeling by the sound of my voice, or simply by my body language.

Yes I realize that there are addicts who cannot get to meetings either because of distance, or because of a physical disability.

As the "Devils Advocate" now:
Are we enabling addicts to avoid finding the miracle of recovery that we found within face to face meetings by providing an online place that calls itself NA; a place without that very real contact that all humans, and especially addicts, need to thrive?

On a practical note, if you read the PR handbook (I think it is chapter 10) on internet technology, there are some real concerns raised about anonymity and the public's perception of NA on websites that are directed at addicts. The public's perception of NA is a important thing for us to protect, because our public image directly effects NA as a whole.

The internet may seem anonymous, but in fact, it is not. It is relatively easy to track individuals. Posts on forums-names and photos on websites- contact information for individuals all can be found by search engines. (See Tradition 11) These same websites may or may not be guided by group conscience..indeed many are directed by single individuals..most well intentioned...but outside of how NA as a whole conducts our business, according to our traditions.

The last point I would raise here (for now at least) is that in the overall scheme of things, the internet is relatively new, so our WSO is still learning by trial and error what the internet is and how to use it effectively to carry the message.

I think these issues that I have raised do effect other groups and NA as a whole, therefore are worthy of scrutiny, & I think the pot is well enough stirred for tonight ....lol

Lon

NA_ROCKS · Senior Member

LOL......I loved and always have loved reading your posts Lon :) Great questions, wonderful post here.

I encourage anyone and everyone on the internet to get to face to face meetings!!! Yes, that is where recovery is....but I have found that if an online group is following NA Traditions there can be a huge lot of recovery online. Using our real names is a point of responsibility today when in a meeting. We have to remember all that we say or do, we are responsible for it today. Of course, once again, this is the way I think of it all....having been online for 2 1/2 years. There is no better experience to get started tho than to have face to face meetings, I say that all the time. The fact that I cannot get to them has caused a bit of problem to me but then again, I believe I'm right where I'm supposed to be today. I know I'll go back to face to face when my life is once again my own and I'm not busy with a child (who is not welcomed at NA meetings where I came from).

As far as online sponsorship goes....there are hardly any women in recovery where I am. And those that are, most have NOT worked the 12 steps. Knowing these two things basically led me to do what I had to do for my own personal recovery so I have had an online sponsor ever since I had a sponsor.

We talk by phone, we talk by email and Instant Messenger; I believe the real thing here is how honest are you going to be with yourself? The steps won't work if you aren't. So why not be honest and get it out...and start living a new way of life, that promised by NA. The more we talk about the spiritual principles that guide and help us in our recovery, the more we share how it worked for us, the better for other addicts.

I don't hide behind a screen today, I am who I say I am....and I believe most people are the same; we get to know people the more they talk....and we can tell, yes we can, when something is wrong. Or when the trust factor is working, addicts are willing to ask for and receive help from us.

I do not believe all people are here to do harm and maybe I'm way too naive but that's just my thoughts and what's worked for me....cuz I've worked it as honestly as I could, a day at a time. Good Lord, I sure am yakky here lately LOL

Love and Hugs, Glora W

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

Huh, an interesting turn: The benefits and risks of online recovery.

Glora's posts reminds me of the Sponsorship book and my own situation with sponsorship. For many years I felt like I didn't and couldn't belong because I didn't have an NA sponsor. Why didn't I? Because I was always the woman with most clean time and I had no one to ask. I had asked men on occasion, but they turned me down because it wasn't suggested that they sponsor a woman.

Finally, the book on sponsorship was published and I read about how creative people were being with sponsorship. It was amazing and gave me a ton of hope. I read about one woman who was the only clean woman in her country - imagine that! She had a male friend who traveled so she asked him to find her a sponsor during his travels. He did and she had a long distance sponsor with whom she worked her program. She was thrilled and was finally getting some one-to-one recovery.

When I read that, I called my husband's sponsor whom I had know for my entire recovery. In fact, I recommended my husband meet him when he (my husband) was looking for a new sponsor. Anyway, I called him, told him about that story, and asked him to help me find a sponsor. Over the next few weeks, we talked a lot about the situation and through our conversations I began to see that he already was my sponsor. I thought about it before asking. I mean, what an unusual situation to have a male sponsor who is also long distance and sponsors my husband, too. I can't think of anything more bizarre. But, you know what? It works for all of us. Go figure.

Tahir · Member

My two cents...

I think as far as hiding behind a mask goes, it happens all the time at the f2f meetings too... hiding behind a mask is a symptom, a defect of our addiction that each addict tries to get rid of by working the steps, not through showing up at an online or f2f meeting so that others remove your mask for you. It's an inside job. Even with my f2f sponsees, I don't much observe how my Sponsor's physical features, expressions and body language is in an attempt to figure out what kind of a guy my sponsee is, I pass on the program, by which I mean what worked and works for me, and leave it to them to make use of or not. Their response and commitment to working the program with me (both my f2f and online sponsees) indicates how willing they are, or are they just doing it because they feel they have to in a Sponsorship, and I am ok with that whatever it is that I become aware of. I don't find it necessary to either judge them or call them on their mistakes. I have learnt from both my first and the current Sponsor that I rather allow them to identify their own mistakes through working their program at their own pace as their Higher Power wills for them. Just my approach, as passed on by my Sponsors, definitely not the only "right" approach or something like that

I also have an online Sponsor even though I can easily pick a Sponsor from a dozen members here in my f2f fellowship in my town. And it works wonderfully well for me till now. More than how I look or how my Sponsor looks (to be honest, most of the time I'm not even able to recollect how he looks) or how I look (he has never seen me), it's the program that he has, that works for him, that he got from his Sponsor, that he passes on to me, which matters and has really made a difference to my recovery. I have felt many a times that we connect at a very deep level online, deeper than the superficial level of facial expressions and features, body language etc. We connect heart to heart. One more advantage I have with my eSponsor is that I can be brutally honest with him, I easily strip myself naked and bare all that I'm doing wrong in my recovery even today. I don't know if I would be able to do the same with a f2f Sponsor who lives in the same town and comes to the same fellowship. Maybe yes, maybe not.

For me, I'm so used to cyberspace recovery over the years now that I don't really find much of a difference between face-to-face and cyberspace. I connect with two common things that bind me with all - addiction and recovery, and that's all I need. I find that many are not able to be as comfortable with internet NA as me just because they are not net-savvy or they still have not adapted to the reality of cyberspace as a daily part of life. I know of many members, good friends of mine, who cleaned up and are clean for a few years now only through Online NA. I guess only those who have experienced it would be able to relate with internet NA fellowshipping and recovery. I would suggest everyone read an awesome share by one of the members who made a huge difference to my early recovery when I reached out for help online after my last relapse. This member is no more now, but you can find her share in "Personal stories" section of www.earthgroupna.org under the name "Anna". That could give some great insights into how vital a part that online NA has also played and continues to play in many member's recovery today.

It Works, face-to-face or cyberspace, if you work it

All we need is an honest desire and an openmind...

Just my experiences and perceptions, might not necessarily be so for others, not supposed to be either

Tahir · Member

Glora, you brought a very important point about the confusion regarding the various versions and editions of the Basic Text, but if we start on that now, I guess we will require another forum especially focused on that... lol... It's endless that debate... A long blame-and-shame game that eventually makes us forget what we are here in NA for...

But yes, as a recovering addict in NA, born again in NA, one must know about his/her place and it's origin... History of NA is not free of mistakes and blunders, but more than that, it's so full of miracles and evidences of a divine guidance of a Higher Power without a doubt...

I have my own extensive History Archive of NA on my comp... I use this archive as a good way to shake off my blues at times... Wonderful and inspiring stuff... I'm not ashamed of anything that transpired in NA as such, but sometimes I do feel that NA is no more a spiritual giant relying only on the miracles of a Higher Power that unfold when we, NA as a whole practice the spiritual principles contained in our steps and traditions... Sometimes, I feel it has become more like a corporate setup where we tend to believe that it is US, not a Power Greater Than Us, that has to control and direct affairs...

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

Okay, I'm going back to the original topic for a minute because Glora brought up an interesting point: That a meeting is two or more addicts together, sharing and caring the NA WAY

Is this board a meeting? Do we need to adhere to Traditions?

Raman · Guru

sorry Blithe,,, Ill need to share a few thoughts and experiences first about why Im fond of this set up=
my recovery in NA has always been non face to face
1.when i first got clean in a centre,,, counsellors were addicts but not NAs,,, so imagine ,,,, i read the Basic Text and was wide eyed as i read the first part,,,then when i read the second part that contains sharings by old timers I was thinking
"where did i meet these guys before ?". I did not know then that i was experiencing the thing called empathy,,, a wordless language of recognition and belief,,, redaing those sharing gave me my first hope for years to coem,,, that i can get clean and stay clean for the rest of my life,,, on a daily basis !!!
2.There were no live meetingsof NA here then,, so I wrote WSo and they sent me a publication called NA loner Group,,, meeting by mail !!!
the name of the Group was Loner Group and was meant for isolated addicts like me,the Meeting itself was called Meeting by mail which implied our primary mode of comunication. Via that set up i wrote,i recieved and met many addicts from all over the World who gave me association for my ongoing recovery !! This was in the days of snail mail.internet was non existent then !!
3.The time came when i had to get an NA sponsor,,, those from the other Fellowship were helpful but I needed another addict for identification !! That too came from Loner Group contact Bob and then later a chance meeting with my then sponsor Tom,,, who Guided me thru the Steps,,,, latyer the "'releasing Step" the 5th was done via snail mail with my dear friend in recovery Diana !!
4. By this time the internet was becoming more available so to keep my ongoing recovery intact and not develop other addictions I once again turned to addicts from alll over the World thru internet !!
5. Now im back into music playing which i had to give up in active addiction and for 10 years of recovery,,I dont know what else i can do for a living that I love doing so much,,, so its back to the internet because my shows are 99 percent at nite.This is why I Bless MIP for being there for nigh on about 3 or 4 years now,,,its kept me going and i remember with love and respect Cooncat Bob, Lon and Bigvand then Manon my early friends at MIP and of course John,,,
so those are my "justifications" for being primarily on internet to meet my recovery needs,,, I also get to meetiongs here aswell as Conventions,outreach and other informal face to face !!
all in all I believe that a meeting a day,, in whatever form,, keeps the addiction away !!

-- Edited by Raman at 05:12, 2007-10-26

NA_ROCKS · Senior Member

Is this board a meeting? Do we need to adhere to Traditions?

OUCH!! Hard question to answer Blithe Spirit!! So many things to consider if we were to follow traditions on this board for one.

Beginning with the literature; only NA approved allowed....well, this board wouldn't be following traditions. Then there is the "censorship" thing that happens; meetings aren't censored as they are real time. The boards can be.

But there are more than 2 addicts sharing their experience strength and hope here. I really like the points that Raman put out there; meetings by mail and / or email. Sometimes these are the only meetings an addict will receive today. From my knowledge (which isn't so much) most of those meetings are opened with the Serenity Prayer and the NA readings....something we don't do each day on the board. For that matter, two addicts together, might only open a meeting with the serenity prayer and skip the readings.....who knows?

I have had so many little "meetings" with people, didn't matter if it was the grocery store or the WalMart; we shared with each other how things are going and how we were getting through the day without using. Then there is the instant messenger things we have available to "chat" or "meet". Are those meetings? Sometimes they feel as if they are, especially when it helps both addicts.

I believe that no matter where we are, our higher power's are always there with us, just the "feeling" of it being the "right" thing happening is awesome, whether it's considered a meeting or not.

Interesting question and I'm not sure there is an answer here because there are too many variables weirdface

This question made me crazier than I already am biggrin

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

LOL - Glora, you're cracking me up over here! I know there is no answer, but I want one anyway (dammit).
LOL
Really, it's fun to think about it and I think we should at least consider the PR aspect - that anyone can access this board and consider it to be representative of NA. I mean, we are the "Narcotics Anonymous Message Board" are we not?

Tahir, Raman, Glora: I really appreciate your posts about how important online recovery is to you. Although I attend an average of 2 f2f meetings each week, I often think I get more recovery here. We have the luxury of discussing a topic for a few days or weeks or whatever, which allows us to delve in more deeply than we might at a meeting. (I'm still thinking about some of what I read here on Tradition One.) I also get a lot out of the diversity and the creative solutions that are presented here. I certainly am not getting that at the local meetings! What I'm trying to say is that I am incredibly grateful to have found all of you.

Lon · Senior Member

Hello again friends,
Something for consideration; my area has an email discussion group. While originally the intent of this group was for recovery discussions, that is not what it evolved into. Now it's format has evolved to; announcements of functions are made, service work is discussed, and general chit-chat between addicts. This email discussion group has been in existence for about 11 or 12 years.

While the original intent was to discuss recovery and follow the traditions..that did not work very well. As you all know, addicts tend to have their own "interpretation" of the traditions, and addicts trying to be "the traditions police" turned out to cause more discord and arguement than anything else. What was settled on was a format of "out to coffee after the meeting". That does seem to work well for us.

Eventually the group was moderated..every post approved by a moderator team. This decision was made because, as many of you know, service junkies tend to be very passionate in their beliefs...and everyone has a vision of the NA program that worked for them...and wish everyone else to get it..."THEIR WAY". This led to some posts that were not particularly spiritual in nature, and in our opinion, did not lead to a particularly appealing public image. Because anyone may subscribe to the email list, old timers, newcomers, or the general public; the decision was made to moderate the email list.

I guess in short what I am proposing is that the message boards be considered to be "out to coffee after the meeting" and that the chatroom is the same, except during scheduled meetings. I have been participating in online recovery in both chat and on message boards for a couple years now...and have seen that neither "excessive rigidity", nor "no policy at all" work very well.

Again it boils down to that most elusive of things for addicts.....balance.

Raman, Tahir, and Glora... I do understand that circumstances make some addicts seek their recovery online, and it is good that this is available to those who cannot get to meetings. I see online as a supplement to face to face meetings (personal opinion); but I have also personally witnessed the drawbacks of exclusively "online recovery" and its effects on addicts who can go to meetings and simply choose not to, as I mentioned in my earlier post. I do try to not judge people / addicts, but I do judge behaviors, to see what I want and what I do not want. That is how I choose a sponsor and those I hang out with & use as models for my recovery...behaviors and how they live their lives.

As was mentioned earlier, it is up to each addict to get honest and work a program of recovery...be it face to face or online. Perhaps I am a bit cynical due to some of the behavior I have seen in chatrooms online. I have met several addicts online whose recovery I admire....and several others who (in my opinion) have nothing I want in my program....and in all truth, the same goes for face to face meetings.

Personally, I prefer the intimate connections forged in face to face contact. It was huge for me to be able to look another addict in the eyes (my sponsor) as I shared my defects of character and see the love and acceptance of me for who I am, after so many years of living in shame of what I thought I was. That act of making myself vulnerable by laying out all of my secrets, and being accepted and loved, defects and all, confirmed to me that I was not alone in this disease. That unconditional love seen in the eyes of another addict, as I spoke of the things that kept me living in guilt and shame, was what gave me the faith to continue on the path of recovery.

Lon

John · Senior Member

The material presented on this board is not required to be NA Conference Approved Literature. This board is not a registered NA group, or even recognized as an NA group. It is simply a place where addicts can exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

If NA Approved Literature is used here without the proper copyright permissions, then we are violating not only the traditions, but also the law. The majority of NA literature quoted here, is not approved to be shared on a message board in cyberspace, if any of it.

This is like a bulletin board in a church meeting hall. Someone might post a note stating a room is for rent, someone else might have free kittens to give away, someone else might need to carpool.
None of this is NA Approved, but it goes to the very point of people simply communicating and sharing generalized information.

If NA literature is all someone wants on this board, then getting that accomplished is simple. Hold a group business meeting and let the majority vote on the scope and purpose of this board. Register the MIP online group with NA, and include the message board as part of the group, then seek NA WSO consent to have post here quoting their literature.

NA protects its literature pretty tight, regarding how and when it can be used, as it's book sales are a major source of income for the WSO and they arn't real kin on letting it be accommulated in any other form, so as to diminish the addicts need for hard copy literature.

I believe I have shared a video of my wedding here, and possible even spoken of my sisters murder here. Non of this is NA related, but if I simply say, "I got through all this without using" it becomes NA related, as Experience, strength and hope for other addicts.

Just my two cents worth..
John

Raman · Guru

yea John,,,,

Tahir · Member

Well put John

Thanks Glora, Raman, Lon and Blithe for sharing your perspectives.

John, there are many in NA who can go on saying what's appropriate or not, what's right or not here, but when it comes to being part of the solution, like having a monthly group business meeting where we can contribute our conscience towards evolving a Higher Power's will for MIP, there's not much enthusiasm and participation. The last time we tried to do that, maybe, more than a year back I guess, there were hardly 3 to 4 members who turned up, Lon and you among them, and there was not much giving back (including me) in terms of what we each receive from here for our daily recovery.

I guess we can transform our energies that this thread and posts have created towards forming a strong group and each of us contributing our conscience towards evolving a collective group conscience that might guide us in our forum and chatroom efforts here.

I remember we had decided back then that we would all meet every first Sunday of a month at 10 AM for our monthly business meetings. The first Sunday of November is around the corner, shall we make a humble beginning again? What do you all say, family?

Love you all and need you all in my recovery,

NA Hugs - Tahir.

Raman · Guru

once my sponsor gave me a very sage advice=
"dont have an opinion and live in the open question!!!"
Ive never followed that Guidance till recently and my life is changing and becoming more serene and i feel"cleaner" because ive stopped participating in group discussions of whats right and wrong,group"conscience",group opinion and group decisions.
I beilieve that as long i dont encounter anyone peddling a particular religion,service,product or certain way of thinking Im ok with how it is now.
However if you all want to discuss,inform and change the way things are here Im ok with that too !!
all the best !!!

Blithe Spirit · Senior Member

Tahir, I will do my best to participate on Sunday. I see no harm in all of us meeting as a group just to touch base. I see it as doing a group inventory. Even though we are not a formal group, we still act as a group in many ways. I also think it's important to keep the P.R. aspect in mind since anyone in the world could encounter this board and see it as representing N.A.

______________________
John wrote: I believe I have shared a video of my wedding here, and possible even spoken of my sisters murder here. Non of this is NA related, but if I simply say, "I got through all this without using" it becomes NA related, as Experience, strength and hope for other addicts.
______________________

John, I understand your point completely and would agree except that the name of the board is "Narcotics Anonymous Message Board," which makes everything NA related.

______________________
Lon wrote: I guess in short what I am proposing is that the message boards be considered to be "out to coffee after the meeting" and that the chatroom is the same, except during scheduled meetings. I have been participating in online recovery in both chat and on message boards for a couple years now...and have seen that neither "excessive rigidity", nor "no policy at all" work very well.
______________________

Lon, the concept of being like "out to coffee after the meeting" is great! I would be really interested to learn more about your experience with online recovery and its management.

Thanks everyone for your input. I love that we can "talk" about this and express our various perspectives with consideration and respect.

NA_ROCKS · Senior Member

Well, being NEW and all :)

I guess I have a hard time understanding WHY there are such limitations on ADDICTS having the literature, no matter in what form, to share with others and to help others. See, I can find (my disease) can find anyway to butt heads with the establishment and NA is not excluded, ya know? I don't believe NA started out as a "moneymaker" and I'm not sure I agree with the way things are done today.....NA (US??) saying, you can't have that!??!! You're an addict, yes, but we have to protect you from yourselves LOL

WE.....LOL......anyway, I probably said something in my first post about being a bit critical about NA but not about NA :) If that makes any sense :)

John, I know you've been around a long time and thank you for sharing with us on this topic.... it's great to read you :)

Love and Hugs to all......and yes, I am a cynic.....must be time to work some more steps and figure out why :) heh heh

Tahir · Member

"WE" it is, Glora

Raman · Guru

your attention please,,, I have a question=
in the light of what was revealed by a few posts here in the context of copyright,,, does this mean the law was broken when NA material was published adverb here ???
Id appreciate any honest answers i can get !!

Lon · Senior Member

Well as an example, aspirin WAS a copyrighted name for a product, however the copyright was not defended...so now everyone uses "aspirin" as a generic description for acetylsalicylic acid.

NA's World Services defends the copyrights on our literature not against us, but for us. How would you like to see another organization using the NA symbols (NA in a circle, or the "circle / diamond") to represent something that is not at all NA as we know it.... say a religiously based 5 step program of abstainance from drugs based upon that religion's "unique" version of the bible? Or perhaps taking the Basic Text, changing some words and claiiming it as their own?

A copyright that is not defended is lost, and the materials of the lost copyright become public property..free to anyone that wishes to use it and / or change it. There is a large controversy on the whole issue within NA. (imagine addicts indulging in controversy....lol) If you search online for "NA little blue" you will find much about the controversy over copyrighting of the Basic Text. That is where NAWOL started out. Personally I can see both sides of the issue, and while I do not particularly approve of all that NA World Services has done, I am able to accept that what was done is the "practical solution" for todays world. Another practical note: Over 80% of the funds used by the WSO to carry the message to the still suffering addict (translations of the BT, printing new literature, funding travel by WSO trusted servants to carry out Public Relations campaigns..etc etc.) are generated by literature sales...NOT by donations from NA groups.

WARNING: Controversial personal opinion follows.....
Personally, I have to watch myself...I can manufacture resentments easily; I dont need to take on resentments over the issue of copyrighting NA materials. The "little blue" story is nearly 30 years old now, right or wrong, the current situation is reality. It is up to me if I acccept it, or if I choose to live in self-manufactured unmanageability by wanting to change what I cannot.

The NA program is just what it has always been...addicts helping addicts and to me, that is the bottom line.

A PS for Raman: Technically yes, laws are broken when we post NA literature here without saying something like "Quoted from Narcotics Anonymous' Basic Text page XX." The main reason is that while NA groups are able to reproduce literature for their own use, this is a public forum that anyone can look at. If I post a JFT reading in a public forum, I am always careful to include "Just For Today Daily Meditation is the property of Narcotics Anonymous©".

In practical terms, NA World Services tends to tread lightly on this subject when it involves NA groups.... but as a part of being an acceptable, responsible, and productive member of our society...I take it upon myself to follow the copyright laws as closely as I am able to.

-- Edited by Lon at 12:26, 2007-10-29

-- Edited by Lon at 12:29, 2007-10-29

-- Edited by Lon at 12:32, 2007-10-29

Lon · Senior Member

taken from NAWS FIPT bulletin #1; available at http://www.na.org/legal/ipbul1-03rv.htm

GUIDELINES FOR REPRODUCTION OF NA RECOVERY LITERATURE

NA World Services acts as the publisher of all NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature. As such, it has been entrusted with the responsibility to obtain copyright protection for these items on behalf of the fellowship. This ensures that the fellowships message as presented in our books and pamphlets is not tampered with.

Narcotics Anonymous World Services is largely dependent on the income generated from the sale of NA recovery literature. This income is used to cover the costs of publishing as well as the expenses associated with other services provided to the World Service Conference and the NA Fellowship-at-large. A large part of NA World Services income comes from NA groups who purchase recovery literature to distribute at their meetings. Many groups consider their purchase of NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature as one way in which they contribute to the unity and growth of NA as a whole.

Use by NA groups
As a general rule, no one has the authority to reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature without prior written permission from Narcotics Anonymous World Services. However, given the nature of our fellowship, our experience indicates that NA groups and only NA groups should have the authority to reproduce fellowship-approved recovery literature in certain instances. When preparing to reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature, NA groups should discuss the Fourth Tradition and follow all of these general guidelines:

1. An NA group should only reproduce NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature when it has a clear need to do so.
2. NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature reproduced by an NA group should be distributed only within that group. Such materials should always be given away free of charge; they should never be sold to generate income.
3. The text of NA Fellowship-approved books and pamphlets reproduced by an NA group should not be altered or modified in any way.
4. The copyright for the item being reproduced should be shown prominently as follows: Copyright © [year of first publication], Narcotics Anonymous World Services, Inc. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.

Use by registered NA service boards and committees
Registered NA service boards and committees who wish to quote or reprint portions of NA Fellowship-approved recovery literature should always include the proper notation or credit identifying the origin of the quote or reprinted portion they wish to use. Generally speaking, the length of a reprint or quote should not exceed 25% of the original piece. In the case of NA books, reprints or quotes should not exceed 25% of a single chapter or section. In the case of an article from The NA Way Magazine, the entire piece may be used if the source is fully cited.

The "Fellowship Intellectual Property Trust"- commonly called the FIPT is online at http://www.na.org/legal/bulletins-fipt.htm

Tahir · Member

Lon wrote:

#1 NA's World Services defends the copyrights on our literature not against us, but for us... ...Or perhaps taking the Basic Text, changing some words and claiiming it as their own?

#2 ...I am able to accept that what was done is the "practical solution" for todays world...

#3 ...The "little blue" story is nearly 30 years old now, right or wrong, the current situation is reality... It is up to me if I acccept it, or if I choose to live in self-manufactured unmanageability by wanting to change what I cannot...

Thanks for your perceptions once again, Lon. I agreed with most of what you shared, except for the quotes that I've retained above smile

Doesn't mean anything except that I differ in my perception with you there, and I still do not shut myself off from opening up to your perceptions when expressed by many other members from time to time to find a balance and better understanding for myself... But would like to express how I differ here...

#1 - forget outside organizations changing words of our literature, is it not so that this happened without many groups and members of NA worldwide being aware of it?

#2 - For me, the spiritual precepts of NA are for all times. We don't necessarily need to compromise these principles doubting that they can't possibly work in practicality. Our Traditions are non-negotiable. There is no NA without these traditions. As an addict, my first reaction to spiritual principles was that they ain't practical. But haven't we each experienced that these principles are what makes our recovery possible?

#3 - Our dark past of active addiction is also many years old, but don't we use Step Eight and Nine to make amends, to set right the wrongs before we could get to live in peace with the present? If accepting the present reality was so simple, why do we need to deal with our past through the Steps? For me, it's ok to make mistakes and to admit the wrongs. Not wanting to do so or wanting to sweep the past mistakes under the rugs means there's something deeply aspiritual in it, that will continue to rear it's ugly head again and again to wreak havoc in our present recovery. If each of us in NA, be it just a member or a trusted servant at the very top let a loving Higher Power's will and direction into our affairs in NA, WE CAN change and unite... We and our natural addictive egocentricities are the only obstacle to our unity. One side wants to stand by it's mistake and the other side tends to be self-righteous. Using our defects of character instead of the program we claim to live and protect seems to be the order of the day, and if this is how it is gonna be inside NA, then I guess how we would treat our loved ones at home and our coworkers at work etc.

Just my limited perceptions and understanding that my Higher Power feels that I must have at this moment smile

Raman · Guru

Well Lon thanks.
Though im not sure what to make of most other messages on this topic,,, yours comes out crisp and clear !!
I like that old saying
"its a good man that admits his fault",,, as far as I can tell whenever Ive quoted ive always tagged it as
'the Text says",,, "in the Basic Text of NA" and such like excetra !!
and yes if indeed someplace ,sometime on this Forum ive quoted without the attribution to source,,, then I now stand corrected and decide that as of now I never want to do that again ever,,,, just for today !!
Just for today Illl be concious of what immposting at this wonderful Forum and not compromise its integrity in any way whatsoever !!

-- Edited by Raman at 16:12, 2007-10-29

Tahir · Member

Raman wrote:

"its a good man that admits his fault"

Exactly, though it was expressed in a different context, it was well put smile

Lon · Senior Member

Hi Tahir,
Perhaps I do not explain my thinking clearly enough, or perhaps we will have to agree to disagree, but I wish to address the points of contention that we seem to have.
----------------------------
Lon: #1 NA's World Services defends the copyrights on our literature not against us, but for us...(Please note much was edited out here) ...Or perhaps taking the Basic Text, changing some words and claiiming it as their own?
Tahir: #1 - forget outside organizations changing words of our literature, is it not so that this happened without many groups and members of NA worldwide being aware of it?

I think we are misunderstanding each other on a couple of levels (A&B)..
A)
It used to be that each Group had a vote, those votes were tallied at the Area Service Committee Level and carried on to Regional Service Committee. There the votes were tallied again, and carried on to the World Service Conference..where they were counted again, and that was put forward as the group conscience. All groups were counted as an individual vote on all issues before that conference.
Now things are done in a different manner..more of a representative style instead of a direct count....
Groups vote and it is carried to the Area Service Committee, the votes are tallied, and the vote carried on to Regional Service is a single yes or no vote instead of X number of yes and X number of no votes. The same happens at the regional level...and a single yes or no vote is carried to the World Service Conference, where the issue is voted on and taken as being the group conscience.
I cannot say that I agree with this newer concept in its entirety, but I understand the reasoning behind it as it has been explained to me;
1) That the process of counting individual votes from each group was becoming cumbersome with the huge growth of the fellowship, and the also huge growth of regional representatives sent to the World Service Conference.
2) That taking the votes this way does give more of a voice to smaller regions in the fellowship. As a theoretical for instance......(because I am too lazy to get the actual numbers)....Under the old way of voting we will imagine that Los Angeles has 200 groups divided into 20 areas, subdivided into 2 Regional Service Committees, the number of votes carried into the World Service conference would be 200 yes and no votes. Then we will imagine that Calcutta has 100 meetings divided into 10 areas, subdivided into 2 Regional Service committees...the total number of votes carried to the WSC would be 100 yes or no votes.
Under the newer way of tallying votes, Los Angeles would have 2 votes (one for each region) and Calcutta would have 2 votes (one for each region). Do I necessarily agree with this new way? Personally I do not. But, this has been one of the vehicles used to fuel the growth of NA into less served parts of the world, by giving more of a voice to smaller regions.

That is when it becomes up to me to accept these changes.... and my Higher Power helps me to see that this change, while not at all what I want, has been a good thing for the fellowship as a whole...and it's growth in ability to serve our primary purpose..to carry the message of recovery to the still suffering addict.

B)
As for groups not getting input into changes in literature;
My area did participate in the input and review process of the 6th edition of the Basic Text. Many areas did not..that is a fact. I know that some of the areas did not participate...... not because they were not given the chance, but because an addict somewhere along the line of responsibility in our service structure failed to do what they needed to do. Information about the proposed changes was not made available to the whole of the fellowship, because several individual addicts failed to do what was entrusted to them. That same scenario almost happened here, but was caught and corrected. I can hardly blame the WSO for the failures of individuals in this matter.

There are 6 addicts in my area that participated in the workshops leading to the writing of the original edition of the Basic Text. One of the workshops was held in Lincoln Nebraska..the town I attend meetings in. Some of them are not happy with the way things are done now, but most can see that the heart of NA has not changed....one addict helping another. They have learned to look beyond their resentments to the heart of the matter. The fellowship of Narcotics Anonymous did vote to copyright NA's literature. Then a minority of addicts decided that a mistake had been made..in effect that the group conscience was wrong... They fought it in court..and lost. That is where the split in the fellowship occurred that persists to this day...to the detriment of us all.
--------------------------
Lon:#2 ...I am able to accept that what was done is the "practical solution" for todays world...
Tahir: #2 - For me, the spiritual precepts of NA are for all times. We don't necessarily need to compromise these principles doubting that they can't possibly work in practicality. Our Traditions are non-negotiable. There is no NA without these traditions. As an addict, my first reaction to spiritual principles was that they ain't practical. But haven't we each experienced that these principles are what makes our recovery possible?

What I was speaking of was the copyrighting of the NA symbols...the Basic Text, and the other NA literature. How else would you propose that we keep outside organizations from using our symbols and literature to misrepresent themselves as Narcotics Anonymous? Granted; in an ideal world where no wrong was ever done such protection would not be needed...that is not the world that I am familiar with.
-------------------------
Lon: #3 ...The "little blue" story is nearly 30 years old now, right or wrong, the current situation is reality... It is up to me if I acccept it, or if I choose to live in self-manufactured unmanageability by wanting to change what I cannot...
Tahir: #3 - Our dark past of active addiction is also many years old, but don't we use Step Eight and Nine to make amends, to set right the wrongs before we could get to live in peace with the present? If accepting the present reality was so simple, why do we need to deal with our past through the Steps? For me, it's ok to make mistakes and to admit the wrongs. Not wanting to do so or wanting to sweep the past mistakes under the rugs means there's something deeply aspiritual in it, that will continue to rear it's ugly head again and again to wreak havoc in our present recovery. If each of us in NA, be it just a member or a trusted servant at the very top let a loving Higher Power's will and direction into our affairs in NA, WE CAN change and unite... We and our natural addictive egocentricities are the only obstacle to our unity. One side wants to stand by it's mistake and the other side tends to be self-righteous. Using our defects of character instead of the program we claim to live and protect seems to be the order of the day, and if this is how it is gonna be inside NA, then I guess how we would treat our loved ones at home and our coworkers at work etc.

Please note: I never said that "accepting the present reality was so simple". It has been a process for me.. a long one. I have been involved in local service, for my homegroup(for almost 12 years), for my area (for more than 11 years), and to my region (for about 3 years, 10 years ago). As it says in "The Twelve Traditions of NA"--"it usually isn't until we get involved with service that someone points out that 'personal recovery depends on NA unity'....".

I have seen terrible fights in service work..resentments held for years over matters so trivial they need to be laughed at to bring them into perspective. I cannot afford to hold resentments if I am to be of service to NA as a whole. As a trusted servant, it is not about me getting "my way", or the fear that NA will fall if it is not the way I think it should be. I follow the leadership given me by the groups, and learn to accept that what I want and my Higher Powers will might not be identical. In fact...I have found that my will often is not at all what my Higher Power has in mind for me. That is when I have to make my decision...do I continue to struggle to enforce my will, or do I trust that my Higher Power will guide me to the result that I need, a result I cannot see because of my willfullness and ego? So that leads me to my choice...do I live in fear, or do I live in faith?

I have learned that my level of serenity is directly proportional to my level of acceptance. My Higher Power does not lead me astray...it is "I" who wanders from the path.

Service has been a major source of growth in my recovery...revealing deeply hidden defects of character..issues of control and lack of faith I might never have seen without involvement in service.

Hugs to you Tahir...from a "self-confessed service junkie"

Lon

Tahir · Member

Hugs back Lon

I think you're right. We both are finding it difficult to understand what each other is expressing, maybe by the words and the methods we use here... It so often happens in an online forum that two members discussing a particular point bring about their understanding of the bigger picture surrounding the whole issue and from that point, finding it difficult to understand what exactly is each talking about, like I was not at all referring to the 6th edition draft while talking about changes in BT, but was referring to changes in the text of two of our traditions themselves from the 3rd Edition

In fact, I love Book 2 of the 6th edition and kept a keen and enthusiastic watch on these updates, and probably the only one in the last two years here at the ASC to even remind about the proposed 6th edition and requesting members to get involved, form a study group, and contribute towards the R&I Draft, but no one seemed to be interested, as is usual

But the last point #3 was well put. We seem to express the same, but your method is more deeper and introspective in expression than mine on the last #3 point. So thanks a ton, it also broadened my own horizons in the process. I truly appreciate the time and energy you take in being a part of MIP and sharing and caring the NA way... Glad we have you here with us.

And yes, Lon, just like what Raman was sharing, if I feel the urgency to post a quote or an extract of our literature here at the forum in a particular context that demands it, what is it that I must end it with in exact wordings - "the above extract is a Property of Narcotics Anonymous?" I would like to follow it too, even though I feel making a part of an IP or a para from Basic Text available here for another addict who doesn't have the hard copies and who needs help regarding a particular area of recovery, is part of the Twelfth Step, carrying the message, and I do feel that we, NA as a whole, are actually stalling/limiting our efforts in carrying the message when we can't quote from or make use of the literature which is broadly proclaimed in our literature itself "to be available to all addicts". I feel this is due to a total lack of understanding of what internet is all about, and I can relate with it, as I myself felt wary about internet while I was using, just like our BT says, "anything new or unfamiliar seems threatening for us addicts." Internet is another way of communicating. I hope we don't see a day when we quote from a Basic Text or JFT at a face-to-face meeting, and then have to follow it up with a "What I quoted just now is a property of Narcotics Anonymous", for example... lol...

Raman · Guru

yes sometimes these things get ridiculous,,,
I rememebr the time about 10 years ago when litt. was scarce here.
A guy from Chennai who had attended a few meetings wanted a Basic Text to take back.
As ASR I had one in my keep and informed office bearers Im selling it to this member from Chennai.
They said yes as a whole that time,,, but later some election issues to RD alt. came up and suddenly I find im being labeled dishonest because I sodl it.The guys that said yes backed out and I had to face the music.
I believe that ta that time my reputation and intergity was made to look suspect and so inspite of actually winning the election,,, I was not given that position.
No matter I tried to apply the 10th Concept on this issue,,, I was denied my rightful place in NA Service !!
All because one single Basic Text was sold in order that a desperate dying addict would be informed that just for today we never have to use again,,, no matter what !!

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